DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders
dhs.gov
dhs.gov
This cannot be allowed to happen. I would love to see everyone violating this injunction (and ordering others to do so) be put in jail, just as if I or anyone else were to violate such a court order.
Think you might've read over that
This press release is words, not actions.
I think the intended interpretation of this seems pretty clear, maybe it's just me, but they seem to be saying "We will continue to enforce executive order minus any vetoes or alterations issued by courts." As you would expect them to.
Yes, the first one.
The Department of Homeland Security will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders...
The whole thing is self-contradictory. They cannot enforce all the executive orders while complying with all judicial orders. Your reading of it is one reading, don't pretend like it's the only reasonable reading. In fact, it's notable that the sentence you're picking out,"
The Department of Homeland Security will comply with judicial orders
does not say they will comply with all judicial orders. So, you want to revise how "pretty clear" it seems to you?
Of course they can. They will enforce all the orders, except for the parts which are specifically prohibited (or otherwise instructed) by court orders. Exactly how it always happened before.
> does not say they will comply with all judicial orders
Of course not. They don't have to comply with all of the orders, just with those that relate to something they are doing. See, I can do it too. The point is that this release doesn't say anything but "we'll continue doing what we should be doing in accordance with the law" and all panic about it is completely self-generated, as so far we haven't seen even single case of non-compliance (actually, people are not only not being deported but are being released: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/iraqi-man-free-de...). Of course, whatever floats you boat...
There are a few comments on this story which seem to reference things which aren't in the actual release.
EDIT: I'm not sure who they are trying to speak to here, are they admitting they will follow the judicial order? Clearly to most people here, we are interpreting it as not following the order because the hint of "following judicial orders" is relegated to the end. The opening of the statement (first sentence) is:
>The Department of Homeland Security will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders in a manner that ensures the safety and security of the American people.
There, in the emphasis added by me, was a chance to mention the judicial order; they could have tacked "while respecting judicial orders" at the end of that sentence, and their intention would be clear, and that would set the tone of the rest of the order.
The reason I mention who their audience is because if it addressed is to those against the ban, then it doesn't do its job as it comes off as oppositional. If it's to save face with those for the ban, then yes, leaving that till the end does make sense. Perhaps that's why it is written this way?
Regardless, over analysing this seems unhelpful, I'm sure by tomorrow morning, their intention will be clear.
> I'm not sure who they are trying to speak to here, are they admitting they will follow the judicial order?
It's a press release, so the audience is the press (and the public.)
It's probably deliberately contradictory specifically so that people able to read their own preferences into it.
Which one? One I heard of prevents deportation of green card holders pending resolution of their cases. I don't see anything in DHS press release conflicting with it. Was there another one? In fact, CNN reports that application of the order to green card holders may be misunderstanding:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/donald-trump-travel-b... As of Saturday afternoon, Customs and Border Protection continued to issue the same guidance to airlines as it did Friday, telling airlines that fly to the US that green card holders can board planes to the US but they may get extra scrutiny on arrival, according to an airline official.
"Extra scrutiny" is kind of vague and worrying, but it's not the same as ban (if the intent was to ban no point in allowing boarding and flying in).
Friday night, DHS arrived at the legal interpretation that the executive order restrictions applying to seven countries [..] did not apply [..] to [] green card holders.
The White House overruled that guidance overnight, according to officials familiar with the rollout. That order came from the President's inner circle, led by Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon. .....
Bannon wanted turmoil and condemnation. He wanted this executive order to get as much publicity as possible.[..] He thinks this will be a PR win.
Liberals think the same thing. All the protests, the court judgments, the press coverage: this is something that will make middle America understand just what Trump is really all about. And once they figure it out, they'll turn on him.
[..] After a week of skirmishes, this is finally a hill that both sides are willing to die for. Who's going to win?
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/01/trumps-immigra...
Permanent residents who have lived in the US for years and are travelling have no ties to the country? That's a stupid statement.
Oh, well as long as it's only minorities who have to suffer, then I guess all is well.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Martin Niemöller, 1946
Now, of course the US aren't a Nazi state... yet. It's very important to make sure it stays that way, that should be the civil duty of all real democrats in your country right now.
This administration would be far from the first government to deliberately play dumb, issue contradictory statements, and otherwise sow confusion to keep any potential opposition scattered and on the defensive. Of course it could all just be a really sloppy transition.
I'm going to assume the last paragraph in the statement is controlling and they will comply (even though we are getting reports of some DHS offices ignoring the stay). But what if they don't?
Refusal to follow court orders will be the end of the United States. Once you break that seal everything falls apart. We have appeals for a reason. Congress has the power to change the law (thus overriding the courts) for a reason. This is also something some of us warned you Trump supporters about and you ignored it or laughed it off.
If you think Steve Bannon (new de-facto head of the National Security Council) gives two shits about the rule of law I've got a bridge to sell you. We already know Trump doesn't give a crap when he started bashing the US citizen judge presiding over his Trump University case by saying he wasn't qualified to judge the case because he was "Mexican". It's a trivial step to declare Congress invalid and establish "temporary emergency measures".
Even if you agree with Trump and support him you should understand how refusal to follow our legal process is a direct threat to everyone... a far greater long-term threat than letting 10,000 terrorists into the country. We can rebuild buildings. We cannot so easily rebuild a functioning democracy.
If you think the FBI or police agencies would step in to stop Trump from declaring himself dictator you are sadly mistaken.
I hope this is just incompetence. If it isn't then the day is coming soon when every one of us must pick a side and take direct action. Fortunately I don't expect that to happen, but the chances have moved up "impossible".
Whelp (editing out the explicative here), this makes it the official position of the DHS that the already-over-the-top measures they have been taking in recent years are not sufficient to establish "control over America's borders and national security".
I guess getting detained and denied entry into the country is "enhanced security measures"?
And I guess deporting people is the most enhanced security measure of them all. If we could deport everyone that lives in the US, I bet security would be pretty tight.
Anyway, read it however you like. I choose to read it as the maximum number of people that could fit within their language, because I think it was written to be purposefully ambiguous.
If it were 3 people, they probably would, but it's not 3 people. But it's not likely they even know how many people are affected right now, given the situation changes all the time, so they used very vague description. It is not a description one can derive any specific number from, only upper bound.
The American Civil Liberties Union, which sought the stay, said it would help 100 to 200 people with visas or refugee status who found themselves detained in transit or at U.S. airports.
ACLU has no reason to underplay the number of people affected while seeking emergency order to help them, so we can treat this as good approximation.
My only point of confusion is whether the ACLU is committing to helping all people in this situation (100-200 total) or if they are saying they have the resources available for a limited number of people (100-200 of potentially more).
Either way, it would be great if the US government -- which is the only entity able to factually calculate this number, and which could have determined the number before enforcing the EO by cross-referencing passenger manifests -- would act like responsible adults and admit what they have done.
Regardless of how many people are actually turned away or detained in the airports or elsewhere, every single person with citizenship of one of these countries and a valid green card or visa is impacted (hundreds of thousands of people). Those still in the US are prisoners here now. They can't risk leaving the country for any reason.
Even if this executive order expires in 90 days and things go back to normal (which I doubt), they will still be afraid. The rule of law has been weakened.
At a time when the world is more interconnected than ever, and technology offers "the world at your fingertips", these bigots want to shut us in and make everybody hate each other.
Personally, it is heartbreaking to see the self-proclaimed "land of the free, home of the brave", the nation that once promised to be a sanctuary to the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free", in the grip of a paranoid meltdown.
Give it time to process. We have been through much worse. Don't write off the whole lot who do not agree with the true intent of these policies.
Now maybe some of us can stop being so naive about broken campaign promises? Obviously there are some that should not have been made, but they certainly should not have been kept. Notice the emphasis by the administration on keeping campaign promises. That is an explicit dig at all Trump voters: they are claiming you want this. You are being made complicit, even if you think you voted for other reasons.
Only a DHS agent can grant entry to non-citizens. On a case by case basis.
I imagine the questions are going to get harder. No more easy peasy things like "Where do you work?", "Why are you coming?", "Are you staying?".
As much as I detest what's happening - what else would they say?
Well, Commonwealth citizens have a head of state who:
> Requests and requires ... all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance, and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary.
:) - I'm sort of joking of course, nothing wrong with the DHS quote, it's just unfortunate (to put it lightly) for those who have been there and are suddenly... well, fettered.
It is important to note that the people affected here are not just the hijab wearing sharia loving Muslims (as trump might describe them) but also people who helped US army carry out the unnecessary operations in their homeland and as a result face danger in their own country. Some top notch researchers or even activists who are fighting the oppressive regimes in their home countries.
As an immigrant I think I better max out my credit cards borrow all possible loans before leaving USA !
Clearly this was never about terrorism. It's about cynically assigning blame to countries who have no means to fight back ie. a Trump hotel or military purchasing power.
says the opposite to me
I just saw this on my G+ stream: https://plus.google.com/+YonatanZunger/posts/T72eVRRHv39
Also wow.
I cannot overstate the danger we are all in every day this psychopathic fascist is allowed to remain in that office. He must be stopped immediately. Our most fundamental and cherished values are at stake here.
Really, the entire statement isn't that exciting, it just says "Agency will continue to follow legal structure of government as all agencies do." Mostly it's just an attempt to reassure people that things aren't as out of hand as they seem.
(especially not people we gave green cards and visas to after subjecting them to years, or decades, of bureacracy and vetting)
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Following-Detainment-Re...
It'll probably end up going to the Supreme court, the Supreme court has two Obama appointees and with justice Scalia passed away there is a chance it could go in the ACLU's favor. . . but established constitutional law is clear, the Supreme court has ruled time and time again that America can turn away anyone at the boarder and non-citizens do not have a right to stay in America . . . so defeating this executive order at the Supreme court level will require some doing, which might happen because of the current composition of the court has judges that are willing to veer away from established precedent.
ACLU of course would argue the whole order is invalid, but I don't think this part would be easy to prove and not likely to get emergency order broad enough, and it probably would take more than 60 days to go through which means challenging this particular order in its entirety may be moot by the time it gets to any sort of trial. If the subsequent policy will match it though it still may have a point.
It seems to me the last and the first paragraph are saying different things.
How can DHS be implementing ALL of the executive action, when part of it has been stayed by the court?
Assuming this statement is, as it says, a response to the litigation (i.e. the challenge which led the court to stay part of the executive action), I don't see how you can read that first paragraph as anything but a denial that they will abide by the partial stay.
Is there any evidence to suggest that they are following the court order and not enforcing that part of the action? The (admittedly hopelessly unreliable) twittering from human rights lawyers involved, seems to suggest they are not.
That last paragraph reads like a tack on to me.
But we're all trying to parse the words and I suspect the statement will be irrelevant, and what happens on the ground will decide how this goes forwards.
It's just a minor difference in the people effected.
Just FWIW, from what I can interpret, the ruling is broader than just the people currently 'on the ground' - they were the petitioners, but the judgement was not limited to them, but to:
"individuals with refugee applications approved by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services as part of the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program, holders of valid immigrant and non-immigrant visas, and other individuals from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia, and Yemen legally authorized to enter the United States."
There's no indication that the stay is limited to the petitioners or current detainees. I assume it would prevent deportation of anyone with legal grounds to be here, who arrive tomorrow, or any time until the full case is heard.
So we'll have to see if anyone is deported. Or if DHS get their act together and stop people boarding.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-chao...
That said, after another hour of research, I think I got it now :) I think I wasn't wrong, just my point about the judgement was totally moot. The deportation issue only arose because when the executive action came into force there were already flights with confirmed passengers (either in the air, or soon to leave). So they'd gone through the pre-flight checking under the old rules, but landed at immigration under the new rules. But the way of enforcing the action will be to prevent people flying in the first place. Passport details are required to be sent to DHS before a passenger boards a plane to the US, and have been for a long time, nothing new there. And DHS routinely prevents people flying at source. So the deportation issue shouldn't arise for new passengers (modulo edge cases like someone on a transatlantic cruise who'll ship up in New York at some point). So if I'm now right, the journalists are correct, this judgement will only apply in practice to those who are currently being detained for deportation.
But again, I'm happy to emphasise that I have done roughly 2 hours of online reading in this area now :) I'm posting here to try and figure it out, not to claim expertise!
Phrases like "first step" are anticipating stronger measures to come. The introduction makes it clear that the agency believes that these measures will in fact reduce security. I don't have enough information to refute that claim, but I don't believe it either.
As an outsider to the USA, I would have liked to have seen more balance. For instance, it would have been reassuring to hear that DHS had taken legal advice on its obligations and how best to implement them without rushing in.
I suspect that the release is written for individuals near to Cabinet who want to know that officials are complying without question. Does not bode well.
"@pierre: This is unbelievable. When asked by two Congressmen [who they report to] CBP agents at LAX said "Donald J Trump" and hung up."
That sounds for all the world like the executive branch rejecting the authority of the judicial branch.
The statement then goes on to say:
"The Department of Homeland Security will comply with judicial orders..."
So no, the executive branch is not rejecting the authority of the judicial branch.
I do remember that being a scandal.
To your main point, a story has been going around that a court has put a stay on the executive order. If true, this would mean that enforcing the order is currently illegal; and doing so could be called a "coup" by the executive branch (although I don't think this technically qualifies as a coup).
Having said that, my understanding is that the referenced court case only applies to the specific individuals who sued, so enforcement of the order is still legal in all other cases.
I understand the DHS statement to simply amount to "we aren't lawyers, so until a judge rules on whether the entire order is constitutional, we have to assume it is and act accordingly. We have lawyers on staff who will tell us how other rulings affect our actions, and how far those rulings go."
It's important to remember that executive orders are legally binding on people who work for the president, but not anyone else. Usually, they say how an ambiguous law will be interpreted, or they add limitations on top of what the law requires.
In this case, the president has directed various people to take certain actions. The courts will have to determine if those actions are legal. It wouldn't surprise me if some actions are legal (cabinet members are supposed to review the policies for the refugee program) and others aren't (prioritize immigrants based on their religion). But DHS doesn't get to conduct its own review of the order; they have to assume the whole thing is legally binding.
If multiple federal courts start granting injunctions against particular parts of the order, then things might change. I'm not sure how that works; although I am sure that government-paid lawyers will conduct their own review of the order, and I strongly suspect that the president has to approve any decisions to not implement a portion of an executive order.
Maybe you can link me to the comment thread where HN was breathless about the need for assassination or civil war.
That story is false (at least as far as I know). The stay was put on one detail of the implementation of the order, not the whole order - namely, on deporting green card holders that has already arrived in US airports.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darweesh_v._Trump
> Having said that, my understanding is that the referenced court case only applies to the specific individuals who sued
ACLU is seeking class action status, but in the meantime if several judges agreed that the stay is warranted I imagine it would be not hard for any person (with access to law assistance etc. of course) to be able to obtain similar order.
This looks day after day like a classical far-right takeover of the govt and people in the US should be really alarmed by these developments.
Don't count on Congressional Republicans to fix this. They've used coded bigotry since 1968. And now it's become uncoded. But either way always consistently there is the bigotry.
Now maybe some Republicans finally have an OMFG moment and can now actually hear the dirty dog whistle, and will revaluate. But for Pence, Ryan, McConnell, it's too late.
We keep failing each test. We couldn't flick them off at the primary. And then not at the general. At each step it gets harder and harder to fix, by design.
The policy is sadistic. They are attacking the weakest among us. It's easy for them to do it, and amounts to a test, how much they can get away with.
You are excited and over estimating the danger, and misstating facts such as his legitimacy. Those kind of things will cloud the discussion and prevent support from the kind of groups you need to defeat him.
The smart move would be to collect information and watch him fail, then move for impeachment. Then start dealing with Pence.....
Actually, the parent does explicitly say this:
our illegitimate "President"
The subject is 'President' and the adjective is 'illegitimate'. If the parent meant that Trump's actions are not legally sound, then they would have written:
"...in which our "President" is illegitimately overriding the authority of the judicial branch..."
>"The Department of Homeland Security will comply with judicial orders..."
Yeah, not seeing it. The stay is temporary, not permanent. He is allowed to continue enforcing his EO.
To some extent it appears that the American public enjoys working itself into a hysteric frenzy. One might almost view it as political virtue signalling on a national scale.
All I see is the fascist partisan bickering in your post. Trump has legitimately won the election and is doing what his powers let him do. He was clear about Muslim ban before election too and people voted for him.
I think we can make better arguments as to why his moronic executive orders hurt USA in a major way and perhaps work to gather political support to reduce the damage but getting angry and abusive does not help.
The President is not issuing a coup. It says directly in the statement they will comply with the judicial orders.
And in Mass (and Mass only) now they are not allowed to detain: https://twitter.com/sdooling/status/825602397007409153
Although some are reporting otherwise: http://nypost.com/2017/01/29/customs-agents-ignore-judge-enf... It seems they are mistaken
Well there's a rational statement. We had an election. Trump won it, under the rules which have been in place for centuries. Clinton knew what the rules were as well, and she didn't play the game as well. Another country attempted to influence public opinion during the election, which has also been going on for centuries.
I assume your "illegitimate President" comment is due to the leaked emails. If the Hillary/DNC emails had all been about how they were going to work hard for America, then the leak wouldn't have affected her and would have actually helped her. Instead, they were about unethical and illegal activity aimed at ensuring she won the election. If you engage in that sort of thing as a Presidential candidate/political party executive, you should get caught and you should lose.
We've got institutional processes for dealing with executive branch policies that we disagree with. It certainly looks like the legislature and the judiciary are responding and peaceful assembly and protest can help motivate change as can healthy reporting by the press.
On the other hand you are advocating for overthrow of the government and a complete disregard for the democratic process and the rule of law. Instead of arguing on the merits your spit out overwrought accusations of fraudulent, fascist, and psychotic behavior.
Our most cherished value is that of the rule of law. Even in the presence of flawed policies and corrupt practices, belief and adherence to the rule of law provides a way to respond to and rectify these mistakes. Asserting that things are so bad that the rule of law should be disregarded and that someone should be removed from office because you don't agree with their lawful policy changes is a certain path to disaster.
There's certainly an argument to be made that diversity of thought and behavior has a net positive effect on society.
However, it's become apparent that the dogma of multiculturalism is causing major problems where a certain religion is concerned. We'd be foolish to ignore this fact.
If the tsa would fold up and go away, I would be the happiest