Comment by qrybam | Hacker News Reader

Comment by qrybam | Hacker News Reader

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Tangential self experimentation anecdote:

I was intrigued by reports that nicotine can improve cognition in otherwise healthy people so I read through as many studies/articles I could find online. After deciding that I'd done enough research I took the plunge and began self experimenting with 2mg gum. I took it daily throughout the day at regular-ish intervals for around 2-3 months.

The affects I experienced were as follows:

* it had a positive impact on my focus

* it provided a boost to my wakefulness if I had a bad night's sleep

* my brain felt like it would "tighten up" while I was taking it

* my body felt like it was experiencing higher blood pressure

Short term I was happy with the results.

I am a fit and healthy, non-smoking, cognitively normal (afaik) middle aged male.

After almost 3 months of taking nicotine gum I developed a cyst in one of my retinas brought on by "high pressure damage to the blood vessels".

When I measured my blood pressure, my base pressure had increased by ~10% (as compared to pre-experiment, measured over several days). The real problem would happen if I was under stress, my BP would spike to dangerous levels when it never had done before. I also felt that I would get stressed more easily.

My blood pressure took a few weeks to drop back to normal. I didn't have any withdrawal symptoms save for the sensation of chewing gum.

I won't be repeating this experiment.

Sharing this story in case you're considering long term usage, whether for medical or experimental purposes.

Medical literature seems to support this experience (although supposedly the effect is smaller in women, sorry couldn't find the source for this particular point):

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12356338

edit: spelling

For anyone interested in continued reading, I highly suggest the prolific Gwern[0] and his compendium on nootropic dosing[1], and specifically nicotine[2] as it related to the post above.

-

[Scoping urls for ease]

0. https://www.gwern.net/

1. https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics

2. https://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine-gum

Take-away from that is to look up the literature /before/ carrying out the self-experimentation. It could have saved the nasty experience with the retina cyst which sounds very nasty.

I guess we normally only get to hear of the self-experiments with great results and advances for science and medicine. The not-so-good results can tend to get buried both figuratively and literally.

Hope you're fully recovered.

At the same time, I would not restrict what a grown rational and self-aware human (emphasize rational and self-aware) is and isn't allowed to do with themselves. See biohackers, attempts at cyborg conversion, and Dallas Buyers Club. I don't recommend it. But whatever, they are individual agents. Of course, if they're actively promoting misinformation, especially that which affects people negatively, as Ron Woodroof apparently did with AIDS drugs, that's another story....

I'm sure someone who's never exercised before could die of cardiac arrest as soon as they step on a treadmill.

I think it's slightly disingenuous to suggest that one should never take risks because there are possible downsides.

Nicotine exists in tomatoes, potatoes, etc. Should I remove these from my diet because they contain nicotine, which might possibly cause a cyst in my retina? Surely, we would both agree that argument is nonsensical.

> Surely, we would both agree that argument is nonsensical.

It's nonsensical because the dose of nicotine in either is basically zero, unless you're eating pounds of raw tomato leaves.

Lots of unhealthy or actually poisonous chemicals exists in your tomatoes, but in very low levels... dosage is what makes the difference...

>The real problem would happen if I was under stress, my BP would spike to dangerous levels when it never had done before. I also felt that I would get stressed more easily.

That's pretty characteristic of out-of-control blood pressure.

Have a doctor prescribe you a battery of kidney tests as this is one of the first organs damaged by high blood pressure.

How many of those 2mg nicotine gums did you chew during a day? I am asking because the stimulating effects appear to exist during microdosing of nicotine, e.g. 1mg for those who have not been exposed to nicotine before.

Not GP but as someone who's never smoked, 2mg is quite a bit and I've rarely found myself taking more than one per day (after lunch), pretty much never more than two. I've never found a gum that was less than 2mg though (I've only seen 2mg and 4mg). I did it for a few years, completely stopped when I had access to nap rooms at work since I didn't have to push through that post-lunch crash anymore.

Nicotine also accelerates cancer growth. Specifically, nicotinic acetylcholine receptor overstimulation is associated with growth and metastasis of pancreatic cancer [1]. Thus, I'd say that nicotine is unhealthy for long-term chronic use. Caffeine, on the other hand, has shown long-term health benefits in studies.[2]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26264026

[2] http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/16/14285210/coffee-caffeine-i...

Note that this risk is likely considerably smaller for nicotine gum and patch users [1], though:

>Indeed, although ST studies indicate that ST increases the risk of oral cavity and pancreatic cancer, at least for some forms of ST (9–11), both are substantially less than the risk of these cancers from smoking (11, 12). The former risk seems to be a consequence of exposure to tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNA) because in Sweden, where ST products are produced in a way to substantially reduce TSNAs, the risk of oral cavity cancer does not seem to be increased (11).

>Still, it should be noted that the risk of pancreatic cancer from low-TSNA tobacco is substantially lower than from smoking, and so this comparison adds reassurance for the long-term safety of NRT.

>A smoking cessation study by Stepanov and colleagues, however, showed that NNK metabolites were not detectable in persons using NRT (34, 35). However, they did find intermittently high levels of NNN similar to baseline smoking levels among some oral NRT users and in 1 of 9 persons using the NRT patch (36). Although these data indicate a potential cancer risk to NRT users, especially oral users, it is important to realize that NNN is only one of the TSNAs in cigarette smoke, let alone of the many other tobacco smoke carcinogens, and so in this context the risk, if any, seems small compared with continued smoking.

[1] http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/4/1...

Nicotine also triggers a spike in blood sugar, which isn’t great for pancreatic health either.

Smoking is my "afterburner" - the ace in the hole. I love the smell of smoke - better if mixed with chocolate and coffee - but I have asthma and it comes back if I smoke more than two days in a row. So I keep this treat for the moments that I need to overcome some extra mental challenge, work all night long, etc. Or, sometimes, to get a "high". Before anyone asks, I do it very infrequently - thrice a year at the most.

And this is why vaping should be banned in enclosed public spaces, especially offices.

I'm completely against the rudeness of vaping in the situations you describe, but studies (easy google search with many results) show that second hand vapor is harmless.

I added this link to another comment, but I'll link it here as well.

http://notblowingsmoke.org/

I think it's just a bit rude. You can take a time out and do it somewhere where other people don't have to smell your latest strawberry liquid. I vape, smoke and do snus.. Not st the same time.

Remember when second-hand smoke was harmless?

Because someone who chewed nicotine gum got a cyst we should ban vaping in offices? I'm not sure I follow.

People shouldn't vape in offices for the same reason they shouldn't pass gas. It smells and it's rude.

Nicotine is odorless, as are propylene glycol and glycerin (the other components of the liquid).

Many liquids do have flavor components added, but odor is not an inherent part of vaping.

If I were picking an analogy for the office, making popcorn in a small office space on a regular basis, would be it. The smell will linger for hours and it covers a wide area.

Are you under the impression that it's possible to not pass gas? I mean, it can be pretty unpleasant, yeah, but I can't actually shut down my digestive system on command.

I have the ability to make my way to the restroom prior to passing gas.

Do you have the ability to be a productive human being while visiting the bathroom every 5-10 minutes, depending on how your digestion is doing that day? Maybe you only fart three times a day, that's great for you, but it really doesn't work that way for many people.

This reminds me of a guy who thought that it was rude when people sneezed loudly...

More room on the outside compared to the inside...

Why not just get more, higher quality sleep? It provides all of the upsides that you mention with no downsides.

You make it sound as though sleep quality were something everyone has control over, which is not at all the case.

Actually, most people could get more sleep of they chose to. Or at least they could get more rest. Stop watching shows and movies, put down your phone, close your eyes, shut up and sleep.

"Most people" being defined as those without physiological nor psychological effects on their quality of sleep, I presume.

Not parent, but nothing I have tried improves my sleep. Baseline is just bad. Exercise, meditation, alarms – nothing works. The only thing that raised the baseline was quitting caffeine.

The thing that finally worked for me was blackout curtains in my room. I didn't realize just how much the incoming light from outside my window was affecting my sleep. In pitch black darkness, I'm out like a light and have the deepest sleep imaginable. (It's so effective that I have to set an alarm to wake myself up, otherwise I'll stay asleep for 10-12 hours)

I'm able to replicate this somewhat using a sleeping mask, but I find most of them pretty uncomfortable; I like to sleep on my side, and that doesn't work terribly well when something's on my face.

Full disclosure here of course, I work an evening shift (12pm-11pm) so I'm used to going to sleep much later in the evening. Even still, I often found difficulty falling asleep due to light bleed from the lights around my apartment, and I feel like this contributed to my sleeping issues more than the sunlight in the morning, which my body's clock seems to have adjusted to on its own. (I still naturally wake up around 10-11am even without blackout curtains.)

I grew up in a house that had the massively thick kind of exterior blinds everywhere, the ones that really make your room pitch dark ("Außenrolläden" in my native language). After moving out from my parent's house I have lived in several places, but often in older buildings without decent blinds. I didn't realize the influence this may have had on me before a temporary room mate pointed out that the room is far too bright for her at night.

Sleeping masks did not help me too, so I got thick blackout curtains for my next flat, and the first effect was that I suddenly had vivid dreams again regularly, which I only had occasionally in the years before. I am considerably more alert during the day now. In retrospect I indeed must have felt constantly slightly tired for years during the day, after sleeping in such rooms.

It is possibly dangerous to sleep in even slightly light rooms. The lowered levels of melatonin are correlated to several bad illnesses (just look it up). I push my SO who still sleeps in a too bright apartment to regularly wear his sleeping mask at least, but people who have never slept in really dark rooms for prolonged time may simply not have the experience points here.

Mine did as well. I absolutely loved them. When I was having our house built in America I tried everything I knew to get them built in. Apparently they are a fire hazard(1) here and so are not permitted by code.

(1) Then again, the house I lived in that had them was nearly 100% concrete as most houses in Germany were. American houses, not so much. Sure would be useful here in Florida come hurricane season though.

Light hitting the skin also affects melatonin levels, so just using a sleeping mask isn't a full solution.

Hey, thanks. After bloviating that I've tried everything--you made me a liar. I do need to try that.

>In pitch black darkness, I'm out like a light and have the deepest sleep imaginable. (It's so effective that I have to set an alarm to wake myself up, otherwise I'll stay asleep for 10-12 hours)

This could be a sign you're not getting much restful sleep and that you may need those 10 - 12 hours to pay back sleep debt.

That 80's show married with children have an episode where the kids instantly go to sleep if someone puts a cloth over their eyes. I've been using that with great success on myself for more than a decade now :)

Have you tried reducing carb intake? Particularly in the later part of the day. I've gone "keto" 3 times for about 6 months each, and my sleep is always excellent during those periods. When I looked into it I found that elevated insulin levels throughout the night can disrupt sleep.

Yes. Totally did not work, but I genuinely appreciate the suggestion

I understand completely. I have a sleep disorder where most of my sleep is as it should be, but when I enter REM, I "wake up" throughout the REM portion of the sleep cycle. The end result is I get very little REM sleep leaving me constantly exhausted. Changes to diet (including making sure I quit eating earlier in the day, for example, cutting out caffeine and alcohol, etc.) haven't made any difference, and neither have changes to the bedroom - making it darker, getting a new bed, and all that.

Right now I'm taking Gabapentin, which helps a little. So far the sleep specialists I'm working with (both a neurologist and a psychiatrist) haven't been able to find anything that helps more.

What works for me is a couple cups of Chamomile tea before bed.

not for me

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