> Here’s the cycle when I’m forced to be in a chair in your office at 9am
This is where the author lost any sympathy from me. It just seems petulant. Go to bed earlier. Your body will get used to it.
This is where the author lost any sympathy from me. It just seems petulant. Go to bed earlier. Your body will get used to it.
But the article was talking about working for a startup. If they want you to work 9-5 so that you can communicate with the team, then get an early night.
A closer analogy might be you telling a bandleader to shift the gig forward a couple of hours because you don't like going to bed too late.
That's not the problem. The problem is getting to sleep before 2am after having gone to bed at 11pm. My general answer has been 6+ alarms in the morning, lots of morning caffeine in the form of sugary energy drinks, and small-to-medium amounts of sleep deprivation to "fix" that issue (accepting a certain baseline level of exhaustion to enable me to fall asleep at 11pm.) It works, but it's far from optimal. I'm not going to whine about it on a day-to-day basis - that would be petulant - but I am going to feign mock horror and incredulity about the existence of morning people, if only for my own amusement. I'm not going to pretend it's not a thing.
Recently, I cut back to near-zero caffeine - as I've done many times before - and found myself naturally adjusting to a morning-biased, 24 hour schedule - for the first time in decades. This was such a startling change that I'm only half joking when I say I thought about seeing a doctor. But I imagine this is merely what life has been like for, say, the likes of you - all along. Perfectly natural. Nothing to panic about.
So have you stuck with this? Or do you prefer the excitement of not knowing?
I think I may - possibly through my own hyperbole - given the impression that I'm some sort of narcoleptic unicorn that can sleep on command, but really that's not the case at all. I've experienced plenty of trouble sleeping at various points in my life, but very rarely was it because I was 'a night owl' or 'a morning person', but more that I was stressed, or drinking too much coffee, or too much alcohol, etc., etc.
But, like you, I've got it under control mainly through common sense. At no point did I ever feel like it was my employer that had the problem because they expected me there at 9am.
For the past 2 weeks, at least. It is very strange.
> I think I may - possibly through my own hyperbole - given the impression that I'm some sort of narcoleptic unicorn that can sleep on command
No, but you've given the impression that you at least have it more under control than I've had it. I mentioned 6+ alarms earlier - this is not hyperbole, there have been times when it's been a regular thing, and on more than one occasion I have slept through them all. Rather embarrassing.
> But, like you, I've got it under control mainly through common sense.
I'm not sure what I've done qualifies as common sense. The amount of sugary energy drinks I've consumed (hating coffee) cannot in any way be considered healthy - I'm lucky my family isn't prone to diabetes, and that the headaches only last a couple days when going cold turkey. While my constitution can bare it, what I've done would probably kill others. The sleep deprivation is not healthy either. I've controlled it, yes - but at what cost?
> At no point did I ever feel like it was my employer that had the problem because they expected me there at 9am.
I don't see it as a blame thing. But I've had employers offer "core hours" that didn't start until 11am, and taken advantage of that as a nice common sense perk that balances the need for collaboration and people's different schedules in what's hopefully a win for both myself (better health and happiness) and the company (better productivity).
All other things equal between two job offers, and I will absolutely take the one with more flexible hours. And I will continue to do so even if I somehow end up permanently transforming into not-a-night-owl - because there will be times I get stressed, drink too many energy drinks, etc. etc. - and I would argue that this is the common sense choice for both me and for my employer.
Quote:
Respecting the Daily Cycle
The daily circadian cycle is divided into four six hour periods, with each one having a different nature and temperament. The temperaments of these different periods need to be respected.
The six hour period surrounding noon is the period of maximum light, heat and activity; its temperament is Choleric. Accordingly, one should remain active at midday, from 9 AM to 3 PM, and not sleep or nap during this period.
Conversely, the opposing six hour period surrounding midnight, from 9 PM to 3 AM, is Phlegmatic, being the coldest, darkest and most passive/quiet period of the day. Accordingly, one should be either sleeping or winding down the day's activities to a close during this period. For the sake of one's health, one should start winding down at 9 PM and try to get to bed by 10 PM or not long thereafter. Going to bed later than this aggravates nervous tension and fatigue.
The other two six hour periods between these two polarities are transitional periods, and surround sunrise and sunset, which are the transitions between daytime and nighttime. The Sanguine period, surrounding sunrise, is the period of awakening. The Melancholic period, surrounding sunset, is a period of a gradual tapering off of the day's activities and the shift to a more quiet, contemplative evening mode.
http://www.greekmedicine.net/hygiene/Sleep_and_Wakefulness.h...
I got a job that requires me to be in the office at 08:30 and I do it. I have no difficulty going to bed at 11:30 and being asleep by 12:30. I have no difficulty getting up at 06:40 and starting my day.
I can do all of these things because I am a responsible adult.
But I don't feel right. I'm not a morning person. I am most productive in the afternoon. Telecommuting from 10:00 to 18:00 would make the most sense for me but I understand that most employers simply do not have the flexibility to come up with custom solutions for everyone.
You are saying that if anyone is not willing to do these things, they cannot be responsible adults. How rude and arrogant of you, if you really mean what you say.
> You should ask someone who actually knows about that topic
The irony of you calling someone out for being rude is almost palpable.
See, you are talking bad about other people, people you don't know, whose stories you might not even have ever imagined. And denying someone to possibly be a responsible adult is very bad in my book. Look how society treats people who are not adult or considered irresponsible.
Having that in mind, I reacted rather direct and rude, but hopefully understandibly so.
Non of this worked to make me funciton more in the morning. However, I can usually function very well at night, even if I'm tired. Even if I got little sleep.
The problem is, if I get up early and try to function, then I won't be able to funciton later either.
I do get up early and work a "morning persion" schedule, but its important to note that my employers rarely get my best work with this schedule.
Well, yes.
If you are not willing (as opposed to not able) then you are not being a responsible adult.
Yes, there are people who have circadian rhythm issues that prevent this but they aren't the ones to whom I was alluding.
Wikipedia [1] says: "Normal variation in chronotype encompasses sleep–wake cycles that are from about two hours earlier to about two hours later than average." (Unfortunately the citation link is broken.)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype
Also worth reading:
I agree with the title - if you don't trust me, then you shouldn't have hired me.
This isn't an argument against remote work, but I've had all sorts of sleep patterns during different jobs. I just go to bed at a time when I can get an appropriate enough amount of sleep before I show up for work.
Now, if I'm not willing to give up control over my sleep cycle you lose all sympathy for me? Seriously?
My argument was totally not against remote work, and I agree with all the points against open-plan offices. However, changing the time you go to bed and wake up is so trivially simple that it just made the author seem obstructive.
EDIT, in case it isn't:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia
> Between 10% and 30% of adults have insomnia at any given point in time and up to half of people have insomnia in a given year.[3][5][11] About 6% of people have insomnia that is not due to another problem and lasts for more than a month.[3] People over the age of 65 are affected more often than younger people.[7] Females are more often affected than males.[5] Descriptions of insomnia occur at least as far back as ancient Greece.[12]
Just medicate the problem, right?
> While sleeping pills may help, they are associated with injuries, dementia, and addiction.[8][9] Medications are not recommended for more than four or five weeks.[9] The effectiveness and safety of alternative medicine is unclear.[8][9]
Oh. Hmm.
I would never dispute that insomnia is a real problem for people. But "I simply can't come in at 9am, I'm a night owl!" is the attitude I took exception to.
I'm resisting the urge to put all the disagreement with my point down to crabbiness from lack of sleep.
Do you take exception to that statement if it came from someone with Delayed sleep phase disorder? [1]
" According Cary Cooper, a psychologist and professor at Lancaster University Management School, when people who have DSPS wake up early for work, they become sleep deprived which causes them to be less efficient, innovative, and creative at the office. People with DSPS have trouble finding positions that allow them to work hours that let them get enough sleep. This also results in more stress, and can cause workplace accidents. " [2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder
[2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/not-ever...
If I had 10 solid candidates show up for every job opening, I'd probably pick one that was willing to keep regular office hours. But that's not the situation, typically. Ability to write decent code trumps the other factors.
Jesus, man, how many times will people have to explain to you that in many cases it does not work like that before you understand or at least acknowledge it?
So, yeah, I like others am pretty non-sympathetic to anyone who expects to be paid money for 100% schedule flexibility.
Then why apply for the job?
The "I'll show up when I want" reeks of entitlement.
However the converse of "I'll show up when I want", in this case "I expect you turn up exactly when i say", is entitlement from the employer. It's just an established one.
I'd say that this is more important than your comment suggests.
Across society at large, it's generally incredibly valuable that workers tend to work at the same time and be available to work together at the same time. This not only enhances productivity at work, but also enhances social lives since as a corollary it means that many workers tend to be off work at the same time too.
If anybody you work with directly needs to work during the day, then in most cases you will need to work during the day as well -- otherwise you'd be hindering the ability of that person to communicate with you when they need to. For instance, maybe your boss has to work during normal business hours because he/she is in frequent communication with other business contacts. But your boss also needs to be able to get into contact with you on the spot, often to facilitate said communication with other contacts. So you pretty much need to work during normal hours now too.
It's easy to see how the network effect of this can be very powerful, and I think this explains why there's an established asymmetry here between employer and employee.
There's plenty of necessary reasons to work from home to
As a person with a "non-traditional sleep schedule", and an employment agreement that allows me to work when I want, I do not apologize or even remotely feel bad for coming in after 9am, just as I don't look down on anyone that leaves at or before 5pm.