Now it's true that in this example it's just a predictor. The very nature of lending is stochastic. Then again, airplane crashes as a function of weight distribution are also stochastic.
[1] It's theoretically possible - likely even - that some hidden data may reduce the influence of race. For example, lenders are required (more or less) to ignore location data since that could be "redlining".
Is weight the cause of increased costs and decreased safety? Yes.
Is blackness the cause of non-payment? No.
Original comment:
I think there's an important difference between directly consuming a resource, and being broadly lumped into a group that has an elevated chance of increased consumption as a proxy for other underlying factors: primarily socio economics. Why stop at that level of granularity when you can easily keep slicing. What's the comparison between college educated members of each group? What about children of professionals? I think the brutish imprecision of stopping at race, especially that it's almost certainly not the cause, makes it a very different argument.
As an aside, wtf is the point of FICO if not to be a measure of precisely these outcomes?
Based on your reasoning, since this scale is no longer a perfect measurement of the true causal factor, it shouldn't be used.
In reality, passenger weight can vary between weigh-in and getting on the plane. The passenger might eat food or use the bathroom before boarding. Weight on-plane, rather than at boarding time, is the true cause of decreased safety. Weight at boarding is merely a statistical approximation to this (and admittedly a very good one).
Reality is uncertain, so it seems we are back to the same place.
Tangentially: Why stop at that level of granularity when you can easily keep slicing...As an aside, wtf is the point of FICO if not to be a measure of precisely these outcomes?
The reason for this is that using more factors is often legally problematic. Such factors are often correlated with race and regulators therefore treat using them as "redlining." For example, (income = low) AND (location == oakland) might also be predictive, but that's strongly correlated with race, and regulators will rape you if you try and use it for predictive purposes.
Also, from what I've seen, your suggesting that slicing further will eliminate the predictiveness of race doesn't seem to be true. At the very least, we often need to slice much further than our available data sets allow. For example, FICO includes a lot of data but still doesn't make race non-predictive. Similarly, in education, race is still predictive after accounting for parental income - rich blacks do worse than poor Asians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achievement_gap_in_the_United_...
The idea that we can avoid these ethical questions by slicing data in the exact right way is probably not true. We should instead figure out our ethics so that we can do things right even if the data doesn't turn out the way we imagine.
Are you taking the position that some races are genetically pre-disposed to these behaviors - that their race is the root cause of them?
I personally don't think so, not because it would be an unpopular position (popularity has little place in a discussion of truth), but because I have seen little compelling evidence of it.
If you agree, then you must also agree that slicing data around causes would necessarily provide better predictive metrics. In this day and age of intense data collection, I find it hard to believe that we can't do better than "Oakland" or "Asians" or "Blacks". You'd probably go bankrupt pretty soon while your competition does real data analysis.
Still, it is undeniable that race - the way society is currently structured - can provide easy and useful proxy to a whole host of predictable behaviors. If we were econobots, concerned only with maximizing immediate economic gains, we'd maybe use it.
But this is an old idea. We know we are paying slightly in short term economic benefits, for human social benefits, as well as long term economic benefits.
That's why we have affirmative action, and mix low income housing with rich housing, and similar programs: because we discovered that ghettos are self perpetuating, and make it more difficult to change one's standing. So we pay a little now in economic effeciency for a better aggregate economic future.
If I were given the job the first place I would look is to see if the effect holds with immigrant black people verses those born in the USA.
It would be a nit, except we had a long thread about this previously wherein I perceived you to have conceded these points, so I'm surprised to see you repeating them here.
In that thread I concluded you had no substantive disagreement and were merely looking for excuses to call me racist. (Why you enjoy that so much I don't know, but I don't mind so enjoy.)
As far as the argument I make here, what do you believe this refutes?
I haven't read all of your and tptacek's recent exchanges, but in the ones I have, he has been meticulously respectful to a fault, so this seems like an unfortunate lapse. Since I know you care about the principle of charity, I'm sure you won't mind my asking you not to do this again.
I am a big fan of you and Thomas. And I love reading your discussions on a topic and have read most of them. I tend to agree with your arguments more but I must say that Thomas is very respectful while disagreeing and I haven't seen him call you a racist. Feel free to link to his comment where he does and I will stand corrected.
Context here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13173952
The remainder of the thread had no substantive disagreement, just questioning my motives for discussing a factual claim.
I still don't believe you. You're right: the comment you cited was a moment of incivility (specifically: I was sarcastically dismissing you). I don't believe that you think white supremacists are mostly factually correct. I think you get a rise out of zapping this particular raw nerve, and feel like you're so gifted at rationalizing message board comments that nobody will pin you down on that.
I don't mind the attack, I just wish it were easier to tell when you were interested in intellectual discussion. Intellectual disagreement is fun, but threads like the one I linked to feel like getting rickrolled. Less fun.