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Try going to a foreign country, almost any, and have this conversation. They'll look at you like you've gone insane, really. Every conversation I've had with a foreigner about this and they think American's are batshit when it comes to the tipping strategy and how much noodle time and effort we spend on it.

Basically it's a type of freeloading. The business manager is dumping off their decision making, verbal and monetary feedback to their employee, onto the customer as if we're the employer (in part). Which is just stupid. It doesn't really give the proper feedback in any reliable sense compared to even a mediocre manager.

I've talked to several people from my home country who won't visit the US because they don't want to deal with the social trauma of deciding who to tip when and why.

Someone should look into how much this is costing the US tourism industry.

> The business manager is dumping off their decision making

The individual business manager is powerless about this. It's an ingrained national culture.

> The individual business manager is powerless about this. It's an ingrained national culture.

I've been to restaurants that clearly advertise that tips are not accepted and this has already been factored into pricing and wages. I never try to tip when I go to such a place.

> Someone should look into how much this is costing the US tourism industry.

I for one consider the whole social awkwardness of tipping as a huge negative against revisiting the US again...

I think it's overwhelmingly a unidirectional expectation. Tippers feel like they ought to tip more than they'd ever defend tipping as a concept. The economic evaluation pretty much shows most people tip the same whether they receive good, average, or poor service. It takes exceptionally poor service to get enough people to lower their tip that the waiter recognizes the negative feedback, and there's probably yet another line below that where they decide to alter their behavior. And in the meantime it negatively reflects on the business overall.

Worse though, business managers/owners are responsible for programming their point of sales systems to include tip lines for employees who definitely are not wait staff and thus are subject to the normal minimum wage, not the lower tipped employee minimum wage. So it really is business managers who are stiffing their customers with this responsibility and the ensuing behavior.

California for some time now doesn't distinguish in their minimum wage between job types; no waiter there is making $2 an hour or whatever it used to be 20 years ago.

Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in theory you would tip well if you were happy with service, and badly or not at all if you were unhappy. In itself that made a little bit of sense (w/o considering the contradictions you mentioned).

But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register), and your tip is not tied to quality of service at all (and very often there isn't even any actual service, other than taking of order and preparation of food). As an older person this strikes me as bizarre; grew up in atmosphere where tips were always after meal and explicitly tied to quality of service.

I think that it's a mistake to think that because all POS systems used at restaurants support tips and you interact with that system up front at fast casual restaurants, therefore a tip is expected up front at those restaurants; it's generally not (and I've even seen some such places that use touchpad rather than write-on-reciept entry for tips pre-select "no tip"); virtually every source I've seen recommends that, if you tip at all at such places, you carry cash and tipping after service at such places [0]. And tipping at fast casual restaurants is far from a universal norm in the US. [1]

[0] e.g., http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-...

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-...

You're absolutely right however I'd argue that the presence of that tip line there leads people to feel bad and leave something there, which starts the feedback loop going to the point where it is/will be expected

At that point it is just the psychological impact you allow suggestions to have on you. One could probably make an "employee-owned" store (WinCo, Trader Joes) with lovely staff and get away with doing this to sweeten the pot for employees.

You say "just" the psychological impact. Which is of course true, but I would leave out the "just" and emphasize that, yes, this is all about psychological impact. I go to these kind of POS restaurants/coffeshops all the time, and I can't recall one where it didn't have a tip screen. I know of several that are also set up so that "no tip" is not even one of the options, the only easy options you have are to select 10%, 15%, 20%, and if you want to leave no tip you have to select 'custom' and then set it to 0.00. This is all about psychological impact.

RE psychological impact: It has often crossed my mind, but I have never investigated, whether the employee on the other side of the POS screen sees whether I have entered a tip or not after I click 'DONE' and the screen is swiveled back around. My decisions are mostly based on thinking they can see this, and I would be less likely to leave a tip, or more likely to leave smaller tip, if I knew that they don't see this info.

If you try hard you can make it so they don't see it but usually they will. When I see people click through far enough to get to that point they almost universally have left 0% which IMO speaks to that psychological impact. They don't want to leave anything but feel bad not doing so.

Me? I'm a sucker for those things. For one I admit that I don't want to seem like a cheapo, and then on top of it it's often at most a buck or two that we're talking about, not a big deal. So I fall for the scam and click the button that leaves money.

Not only that but you've got people behind you in line who can see what you are doing, and you don't want them judging you! What if you we with a date, or a friend, or your boss or coworkers? They can see the screen and you want signal you are a good person to these people.

A good person, by the standards of tipping culture, tips appropriately after service; tipping before service destroys the link between service and tip that is the fundamental conceit of the tipping culture.

Visibly tipping before service is not signalling that you are a good person.

That is precisely the thing. The link between service and tip was the "fundamental conceit of tipping culture". But no longer. You simply tip for certain kinds of jobs (e.g., coffeeshop baristas) and not others (McDonald's cashiers). It is pointless to try to make sense out of it; it makes no sense.

Nothing makes me feel like a sucker more than tipping before service is rendered, and then getting bad service!

> But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register)

I've never seen this, other than at places where I'm not being waited on. At these, I don't tip unless I am particularly satisfied by the place.

I'd definitely am curious as to the impact on tips when it's expected upfront like that.

> One is the idea of a percentage

I've always found this odd too. Say for a special occasion I decide to go to a high end steakhouse... mid-range bottle of wine, two nice steaks, a'la cart sides, appetizer, and desert we're at $500. That's $100 at 20%. Did that person really do more work than the person I tipped $10 at Chili's (an american casual family restaurant)?

> Another inconsistency is where to tip

I usually end up spending 20 minutes Googling "what to tip _______" before going anywhere or getting an deliveries.

Yes, on average the server at the high end restaurant did substantially more work, and they performed it more expertly.

they were better able to answer questions and offer suggestions (including off-menu changes that might help you). They timed your meal for your enjoyment rather than for turnover. They made sure you had fresh silverware, a clean table, and a full glass. They coordinated your bar, wine, and food orders so appropriate items were presented at the appropriate time. They verified the kitchen gave them correct dishes before they brought them to you. They devoted a lot of energy into ensuring that a small number of guests have a great experience.

They're able to earn decent livings because they are at the top of their field.

The folks at chili's are granted no autonomy. Their goal is to turn the table quickly, with the least effort; and to do this with the least skilled staff. They work hard, but their goal is to serve a large number of guests with a tolerable experience, not a great one.

Yes, they bring food and drink, but the focus is on throughput, not on quality.

It's similar to the difference between code written by a low bid contractor versus a talented on-site team. If you want anything unusual or if you care about quality and the experience, you'll greatly prefer the on site staff. Even if some execs might not understand why you can't offshore 100% of the work.

All of these things you describe, fall under what I consider "their job"

Agreed. Where I'm from, if a restaurant or a fast food doesn't satisfy these things (aka doing their job), then I simply don't go there.

So assume that if they (and the back of the house, in the event of tip pooling) were paid a meaningful base wage it would have cost 20% more for the experience of dining at the restaurant. Do a calculation and add that to the check, because that's what you would be paying if we didn't have tip culture.

The thing is... people are okay with that. It's how most every other country works. Americans are paying it anyways, the only difference is sometimes the waiter(ess) gets shafted because the business outsources the responsibility to their customers.

I don't live in a tip culture (not in America), and things seem to move along just fine. There's no shortage of people eating out in restaurants, nor a shortage of wait-staff working there..

That's not the point I was making. The point I was making was if you are so offended by the idea of tipping imagine that:

* If we didn't tip, these experiences cost 20% more. (We can't know whether that's the right number or not, but I think it's a good place to start)

* Now just apply 20% to your check and go on about your day.

This is legitimate advice for a person baffled by tipping -- just pay 20% more and move on. If we lived in a world where that waiter got paid a meaningful wage, that's what you'd be paying.

and part of the compensation package associated with "their job" is tipping.

Your point being?

While I'm not disagreeing that a server at a high end restaurant has substantially more work to do. I'd argue that simply the lower volume of orders and higher level planning by the restaurant managers is a more critical piece here. It's like running on a bespoke finely tuned server versus just trying to use auto scaling cloud services and crossing your fingers.

I agree. I think the reason has to be that you are getting a better level of service and they will have a much lower volume of tables so they need a higher margin per table. (Obviously there are some high volume / high cost restaurants but that isn't the norm.)

That has generally not been my experience... but I have never spent $500 on a meal before, so my experience is with the lower to mid-tier priced establishments.

It could be an incentive. Some customers are more valuable than others and using percentages means the employees will be extra nice to high-value customers and not waste too much time on the low-value customers.

Of course they should be nice to everyone, but if it is a busy day and they have to choose, the restaurant owners would prefer that they prioritize the ones who spend more.

Here's the thing. I worked in the restaurant business in various capacities all through college. As a cash transaction, it will come as no surprise that a lot of tips go unreported as income. From time to time the IRS will decide the reported income from a restaurant seems low and audit the staff. It was generally understood that if you had reported 10% of your sales as a server/bartender as tip income you'd be ok. If not you were in trouble (and this happened to people I know). So if you tip $20 on a $500 dollar tab because it's the same amount of work as $100 dollar tab. your server will most likely still claim $50 in income and be at about break even once the taxes are paid on it.

This still doesn't explain why it should be a percentage other than that everyone assumes a percentage.

You're right. I didn't say it did. I was just trying to give some insight into how it works for people that have maybe never worked for tips. I am of two minds about tipping. As a customer it would be nice if these jobs provided a decent base pay + benefits and everything was just priced into the meal. On the other hand I would have hated this when I worked for tips, as I hustled and provided good service which allowed me to make a lot more than co-workers who didn't.

>hustled

This word is telling. If I go out to dinner I'd really prefer to not be hustled.

hus·tle ˈhəsəl/ verb

    1.
    force (someone) to move hurriedly or unceremoniously in a specified direction.
    2.
    North Americaninformal
    obtain by forceful action or persuasion.
    3.
    North Americaninformal
    engage in prostitution.

How would they be "in trouble"? You mean the IRS is going to ask them scary questions? Or does the IRS really go around fining people with no more evidence than "Well, we think that maybe you earned more in tips than you reported, because someone else reported that they earned more..." Any CPAs or tax attorneys care to share their experiences? I can't see how the latter could be legal.

It also, to some extent, favors appearance over service.

Somehow, this seems to speak significantly to life in the U.S.

Of course, attractiveness is favored, everywhere. But in the U.S., we make it central to career success -- perhaps a bit more and in a wider range of roles than elsewhere in the world.

And we often fool ourselves, favoring physical appearance over reciprocity.

> did this person/restaurant really do any more than the server of the last entire meal that cost $20?

This question applies to the bill too.

It makes some sense in that high end restaurants employ high end servers, who has more and better skills than Olive Gardeners, so they command a higher wage.

And don't forget the entire lower class of super-important minimum wage earners who collectively have disdain for minorities that don't tip as high.

The insanity is amusing just typing it out, amongst other commenters talking about how strange America seems from other countries.

I am a white male, but speak with a heavy accent despite living in US for over a decade. One time a server lectured me about tipping right before leaving the bill.

spend a couple years getting stiffed by people with heavy accents, you'll start lecturing too.

keep in mind these people don't earn a living wage, they live off of tips.