Hacker News Reader

Comment by jliptzin | Hacker News Reader

Don't be fooled, Canadian border patrol proudly engages in this as well. I was recently driving across the border to Montreal on vacation when Canadian border agents, in addition to searching my car and personal belongings, demanded to see my cell phone and turn over the password. I simply asked why, since I didn't think I was doing anything suspicious, at which point the agent angrily responded "because I can and now I'm going to search it extra thoroughly." I asked what would happen if I didn't turn the password over and just went back home to the US, they told me they'd seize the device and put me in prison until they break into it. So, I gave the password, 3 agents took it in the back for 45 minutes, came back and questioned me about some texts I had with a friend from months ago who was talking about marijuana, and eventually let me pass to Canada. Hopefully they didn't hold on to all my personal data or install backdoors but just in case I wiped the phone and reinstalled from a backup.

In any case, this was extremely intrusive and I couldn't stop thinking about it the whole trip. I wondered what would happen if I had actually forgotten my phone password - just weeks before I changed from a 6 digit numeric code to a longer alphanumeric and almost forgot it since it had been a while since the last time I restarted my phone requiring password entry. I had a lot of very private photos and conversations on there with my SO. Definitely ruined my whole vacation.

Edit: Also, they didn't just stick to private photos and messages, they even opened up dating apps checking for messages there, opened up unread snap and kik messages too.

View on HN

I’ve always found it ridiculous that the content of devices is fair game. There is literally nothing on a phone that couldn’t be digitally downloaded after crossing the border (therefore no “threat” by bringing the phone with you). Similarly, there is no possible way to harm an airplane based on what is present on a laptop; and even if there were, you could buy in-flight WiFi and download the bits after boarding. You could cross the checkpoint with a blank device and in seconds have it populated with whatever you wanted to have. It’s insane.

> I’ve always found it ridiculous that the content of devices is fair game. There is literally nothing on a phone that couldn’t be digitally downloaded after crossing the border (therefore no “threat” by bringing the phone with you).

Not quite that it's "no threat", more like no additional threat than memorizing a long passphrase and downloading / decrypting your illegal Canadian porno on the other side.

> Similarly, there is no possible way to harm an airplane based on what is present on a laptop; and even if there were, you could buy in-flight WiFi and download the bits after boarding. You could cross the checkpoint with a blank device and in seconds have it populated with whatever you wanted to have. It’s insane.

It's not insane though. The point isn't to catch anything, it's to acclimate the populace to this type of search and seizure. Kind of like how refusing to go through the body scanners at the airport earns you "What's up with that guy?" looks from other travelers.

Right - and apparently this is exactly what you should do. Always travel with throwaway and/or wiped devices. Don't trust a device that's been seized and returned.

I can't upvote this enough. I'm a law abiding citizen, but I still wipe my phone and restore from iCloud after I've made my way through customs or border control.

Yes and you have to keep in mind that just because someone has the legal authority to seize your posession, you have no reason to trust that what they will do with it will be legal as well. For all you know they can do any number of stupid and/or malicious things with your device that don't reflect the intentions of the government they represent either (being generous here). They are just people, after all.

If you run a startup with millions of users it is reckless to assume you will not be the target of industrial espionage when crossing a foreign border or traveling in a foreign state.

> I still wipe my phone and restore from iCloud after I've made my way through customs or border control.

It's not enough to just re-install the OS. You have to have your hardware recycled (discarded). Within a couple of seconds, they can put spyware onto your firmware by simply inserting a prepared USB device. The only way to get rid of that kind of spyware is to destroy the hardware.

The other solution is to not travel to any totalitarian countries or to travel there without any hardware, if you must.

if its in icloud, they don't need to take your phone...

I don't think border agents take phones because they need to.

No what you should do is realise you live in a democracy, which was passed on to you by the blood and sweat of previous generations, recognize that our generation in its complacency and greed has allowed it to be be hijacked by a bunch of despots and accept the responsibility to secure it for future generations.

You should not acknowledge, recognize or legitimise these 'unnatural rights'.

> I’ve always found it ridiculous that the content of devices is fair game.

Even more important to me is the fact that once you lose exclusive physical control over your hardware, you must consider it compromised, and therefor have it recycled (it is enough to simply connect a prepared USB device to your device for a couple of seconds in order for you to lose total control over it and be under permanent and total remote surveillance).

To me, this is more than enough of a reason to simply not travel to countries like the US (and now apparently Canada as well) anymore. And any such country certainly doesn't deserve us.

Out of curiosity where do you live now?

I don't think they'd ever make the argument that the content itself is dangerous - but it may give them more information about you, and let them decide that you are dangerous.

At an extreme - if you had a document plan_to_takedown_flight_123ABC.pdf or diary_about_my_drug_smuggling_operation.txt, whether or not the data itself is a threat, it could indicate that you are.

I mean, I think it's bullshit, the same way I think most security screening and border guard questioning is bullshit, but if you wanted to maximize your border security (and keep out, ahem, "undesirables") and don't care about people's privacy, it's perfectly logical.

> if you wanted to maximize your border security... it's perfectly logical

If your threat model is that someone capable enough to take down a flight is dumb enough to keep "plan_to_takedown_flight_123ABC.pdf" on their laptop, then it's logical. Otherwise you're wasting resources and _minimizing_ your security.

yea, it's a nice attempt to justify your actions, but when drug smuggling and gun running is conducted by federal agencies and the TSA fails 95% of bomb detection tests, you have to wonder what the actual goal is.

I see the actual goal as showing the populace who is in charge as well as getting them used to searches and interrogation. Combined with the newly militarized police, it decreases the probability of another revolution.

Tin foil hat and all, I actually agree

I would hate to be a fiction writer crossing boarders.

Most boarders are pirates, so I wouldn't want to cross them either.

Nawh, they're just a few days late on rent.

Between the quality airport Wi-Fi and the fact that they ask you nicely to put your phone in airplane mode, I submit to you that it's mildly inconvenient to download malicious stuff after security checkpoints.

Someone should mod android so when you enter a second password it wipes everything but gives the appearance of a regular login.

That would be like the cryptosetup nuke patch on Kali Linux - http://linuxbsdos.com/2014/01/14/apply-the-nuke-patch-to-luk...

Cryptosetup is at version 1.7.x, but the latest patch was for cryptosetup 1.6.x. So the existing patch does not work for the latest cryptosetup.

Although then you'll probably run afoul of some jurisdictions that make it illegal to lie to the police in some circumstances (not that it necessarily needs to apply, it's the sort of thing they might throw at you to make an example and dissuade others, and quietly drop after they've caused enough mayhem in your life).

Can they know? Not most the clowns on the borders. It wouldnt brick it, just rm a directory and background shred.

> I asked what would happen if I didn't turn the password over and just went back home to the US, they told me they'd seize the device and put me in prison until they break into it.

I guess it depends on how much you care about your personal info or how sensitive your data is, but I wouldn't budge based on this. I'd say, "Okay, I want to talk to the American embassy," then wait it out.

Edit: To be clear, this would be my response without knowing anything about the relevant Canadian law — since I don't – because the statement sounds like a lie. LE lies all the time. Indefinite imprisonment of a random person? Nah. And breaking into a locked phone is actually very difficult — see Apple versus FBI.

You're under the mistaken impression that when you enter a border crossing you can turn around and go home without the permission of the country you're attempting to enter.

This is not true. You've already entered the country, and so the border staff (US, Canadian, whoever) can indeed detain you, throw you into immigration detention, take all your stuff, really whatever they want. You don't have any rights. You could call your embassy, but they will tell you that so long as the other country is following its own laws, you're stuck, and they can't help you.

If you don't like it, don't go.

There is one exception. US immigration runs "preclearance" facilities at major Canadian airports (and a handful of other places). Here, you clear US customs and immigration before you ever board your flight. Because these facilities are still on Canadian soil, you are free to turn around and walk away at any time; they cannot detain you as they can at land borders or US airports.

Under the proposed Preclearance Bill (Bill C-23), if you are legally detained by a U.S. preclearance officer you do not have the right to withdraw anymore.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Lan...

So Canada is willingly becoming a literal American colony?

What if I make a break for the US border? Will they bring me back to the Canadians?

Actually if I were alone I would have done that just to prove a point, but I was with my SO and I didn't want to ruin his vacation as well.

Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border.

Even if you decide not to enter as opposed to being denied I bet it pops up on their screen for a long time.

Once you are denied entry in to Canada (or the us) be prepared to answer questions about it for the rest of your life every time you cross the border.

If a border agent threatened me with jail, I don't think that being unable to return would be a problem for me. :-)

(Disclaimer: having no family in Canada, or any real need to be there.)

Even if you've done nothing "suspicious", you can get automatic screenings just for having a name that is a Soundex match to a fugitive.

Forever, actually.

I think the correct legal approach there is to say that you are withdrawing your application to enter Canada. They're supposed to let you go back to the US at this point. I am not a lawyer.

I believe they still track this with your fingerprints so next time you try to enter you'll be asked about it. Best to be nice to the agents even if they're not being nice back. People that create a scene are the ones that end up basically banned for life.

It can be better than some alternatives. There have been stories about Canadians being asked questions about drug use at the border. Upon admitting to some historic use getting barred for life for entering. Supposedly they could have avoided answering the question by withdrawing their application (according to the lawyer consulted). This is better than getting barred for life or being refused entry and you have time to consider your options. Obviously best not get into this position in the first place but sometimes it's not your choice.

Is this a right you have in Canada? Can't they just be like "yeah, no"?

Maybe. I don't know. But law enforcement routinely lie, so I default to not taking them at face value. If I had a pressing medical need or something like that, I would probably bet differently.

I was asking because while I have never had a personal experience regarding the subject, one of my wife's (US citizen) friends was once locked up in the United Arab Emirates for the heinous crime of being drunk and it took quite a bit of effort to get him out of jail (and even then he wasn't allowed to leave the country for another 6 months) and he received _zero_ assistance from the US government. Now obviously Canada is not comparable to the United Arab Emirates in this regard but clearly when you're abroad you enjoy no legal protection beyond what the host nation's local laws provide you with?

Unlike in the US, illegal and unadmitted entrants to Canada, the UK, Australia (and probably everywhere else) don't have constitutional protection. So while a Canadian could possibly protest, a non-Canadian really hasn't got a leg to stand on.

> Unlike in the US

No, just like the US:

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

Um, no. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms specifically grants rights to everyone and not just Canadian citizens. Except in a few cases like mobility rights where the right is specifically restricted to citizens.

A non citizen can be refused entry but they absolutely have a right to not be arbitrarily detained.

Sadly, that's not true. Read this paper titled "How the Charter Has Failed Non‐Citizens in Canada – Reviewing Thirty Years of Supreme Court of Canada Jurisprudence".

[1]http://www.fondationtrudeau.ca/sites/default/files/u5/articl...

Most of these are about deportation and immigration, where it's clear that non-citizens do not have a right to remain in Canada and are trying to use other sections of the charter to say, for example, that deportation would deprive them of section 7 rights. Of course many of these types of claims will fail.

But I'm not seeing where "non citizens have no rights" or the court says that whole sections cannot be applied to non-citizens and the word everyone doesn't mean what we think. In fact I'm seeing some rulings where the court acknowledged for example that equality rights do apply to non citizens.

I am seeing a case where they allowed someone to be detained, but it seems they found a way to decide that the restriction was reasonable and therefore constitutional, but they didn't decide that non-citizens cannot benefit from this right.

The American constitution obviously doesn't apply in the UK, but laws like the Human Rights Act do, and regardless of nationality.

" I'd say, "Okay, I want to talk to the American embassy," then wait it out."

You'd be waiting forever.

I doubt it, because it would end up being a PR storm for Canada, just like this event. I have people who would want to know where I was. I might end up waiting weeks or months, though. It's hard to be sure without knowing more about Canadian law and enforcement norms.

No, it would not be a 'PR storm'.

This kind of stuff happens all day, every day, at every one of the major border crossings.

You'd be denied entry and that would be the end of it.

"I might end up waiting weeks or months, though."

The American embassy will tell you there's nothing they can do, and you'd be waiting in perpetuity in a hotel on the American side of the border.

Exactly. This topic has come up on HN before and we've had HNers tell even more horrifying stories than today and nothing comes of it. Getting an attitude and trying to appeal to your legal rights will just embolden some of these powertripping authority figures. It's best to come prepared, either with a TrueCrypt plausible deniability type solution or just by wiping / clearing out your OS beforehand. I chose the latter option when I flew into the US, because I'd imagine even FDE might look suspicious enough to warrant getting hastled or detained.

"Getting an attitude and trying to appeal to your legal rights will just embolden some of these powertripping authority figures."

The thing is, you may not have such 'rights', at least not in a legal sense. I suggest the duderinos at the border are well aware of what they can, and cannot do.

If you have a beef, it's with Homeland Security or Congress, not the border guy.

And if you're entering a foreign country ... well, your legal rights are pretty thin. So there's that.

I think the point was that it was an answer to the jail threat...

>I doubt it, because it would end up being a PR storm for Canada, just like this event.

PR Storm? This is the first I've read about it, and it's the NY Times. I don't see anything relating to it on CBC, Globe or National Post sites. Nothing on CBC Radio 1 in my drive to or from work, either.

The company I work for is located in Canada and I've been heavily involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem. So I've been back and forth fair amount and this mirrors my experience.

I normally wipe my devices while crossing the border, phone and laptop but one time while I was doing a much shorter round trip, I decided not to wipe my phone.

on my way into Canada, i was identified for enhanced screening at like 10pm, After waiting an hour, the agent asked for my return flight ticket, which I didn't have printed. so it's late, im dangerously close to missing my connection, and I think, "Oh! I probably have the confirmation email on my phone!"

So i pull out my trusty CIA surveillance device, unlock it, and pull up the confirmation email. The agent then takes it directly out of my hands and walks into the back. I don't know how long he was gone (long enough to miss my flight) but when he came back he had a bunch of questions about a girl I had been texting and who had sent me some provocative photos. I don't know that helped Canada's national security but sure, whatever.

To be fair, the US CBP has never taken any devices from me but they do stop me routinely and dump my bag and ask all sorts of ridiculous questions. I used to fight it but now I just sit/stand quietly until they are done. On my latest trip, i guess I was too polite so the agent decided that was suspicious. His face got all twisted as he began asking me the questions.

There are no rights at the border so don't cross with anything.

I had a similar situation, and also ended up getting stuck going through a ton of "interviews" until I got Nexus. It's proved to be a major time saver, even just for domestic flights. Among the most useful $50 purchases I've ever made.

yea, i tried that but got denied. :/

Just curious, what reason did they give for your denial?

they don't. they tell you to file a bunch of FOIA requests on yourself and then appeal if feel like you'd win.

pretty ambiguous.

Where do you store your data so that you can retrieve it once you've crossed the border?

I don't. by this point I've got a relatively small personal digital footprint.

Everything I need I can download again, or log back into. working out 2fa was a blessing and a curse. decoupling it from sms has been great but I do rely on a centralized service to store a theoretically encrypted backup. I'm lucky to have a pretty decent memory, so I everything else I just remember.

I guess the part that is the most frustrating is that as a result I don't really save or take many pictures. i don't backup or save any additional contacts. I don't save anything important in messaging applications. Oh, and I can't decrypt pgp communications when I'm out of the country, because like hell I'm bringing that accross the border.

I've had my encounters with law enforcement, I won't ever feel comfortable again. I'll never forget the look on their faces when they look at you like they know something super private and they find it hilarious.

Thanks for sharing in detail. What is the service you use for backup?

theres a few different ones. i think authy, duo, and last pass all provide a similar service.

I think that settles it. I was already considering this before, but now I'm actually going to do it. Before crossing the border, I'm rooting my phone so I can take a full disk image, which I'll leave at home. Then I'll factory reset and just load what I need for the trip^. It's a pain, but worth it to avoid the chance of this kind of invasion of privacy.

^Can make an image of that too for ease of use on future trips.

Of course, if they can do this, there's nothing really stopping them from forcing you to log into your webmail either, so maybe there's nothing you can ultimately do. (At least short of creating elaborate decoy accounts, but then you're actively lying to them, which probably isn't a great idea.)

better yet is to buy a cheap unlocked phone from walmart and just take your sim out and put it in the cheap phone and leave your real phone at home.

Even so, the main thing I wouldn't want someone snooping in is my email, and as long as that's online it seems just as feasible that I would be forced to log into that as into my phone.

Also, I tend to use my phone a lot when I'm traveling, so I'd like to have it!

On entering Canada, I've been asked to open my laptop, turn it on, enter an administrator level password, and then search for *.jpg. Everything shows up -- cached browser images as well. The agent asked a lot of questions, but I was allowed to pass eventually. This all took place out in the open, where they would normally collect a form from you.

I immediately started using TrueCrypt with the plausible deniability option, which allows you to enter an alternate password to open a completely different part of the encrypted area seeded with some random files that look realistic enough to pass scrutiny.

It was always fun to unmount the volume and remount it with the plausible deniability volume. Or, just shutting down before crossing the border and knowing that, if needed, I'd enter the alternate password.

Recently I started using a Mac and Apple's own full disk encryption, but reading this just highlights the risk. Maybe I should start using TrueCrypt again.

Ugh...it's frustrating.

Why *.jpg? Do they just assume everyone is smuggling porn on laptop hard drives or something? You'd think if you were looking for evidence of terrorism or immigration issues you'd be more interested in emails and documents.

These searches, if true, have nothing to do with border security and more to do with fishing for anything and everything they can charge you with once they aren't encumbered with warrants and courts and due process.

Exactly.

With obscenity laws and laws outlawing certain drawings and such, porn is just the low hanging fruit.

Or maybe it's just rogue agents that want to see if you have any provocative pictures of your spouse on your devices?

Someone's probably already thought of this:

Make a second password which "unlocks" the phone to some innocuous mode that won't hold the meatheads attention any longer.

Assuming you aren't specifically targeted.

how about just back your stuff up to the cloud, and on a micro USB card. Those should be easy enough to hide, and if they find it say it's an extra one for your camera.

Like with TrueCrypt?

Android allows creating multiple users.

I'm curious, do you think anything about your appearance or car made them profile you specifically? I crossed over a few years ago at Niagara falls and found the border agents extremely courteous and friendly, probably more so than any other crossing I've made in the world. I mention it not as anecdata, but just to wonder if even the same border agent might treat someone very negatively today (change in policy over time) or simply because they are looking at silly factors like how old your car looks.

I'm all for being friendly, but sometimes being real friendly is also a sign that they're up to something. I remember reading an article about a Geo Cacher who got stopped by the Secret Service for circling around the White House in a car too many times. he said the guys on bikes were real nice and friendly, talked all about him and his geocaching....until the marked car of thugs showed up and detained him.

Also, if driving a nice car was the key to getting past BP, drug smugglers would have figured this out ages ago and adopted it as SOP.

Isn't that the point though? These kinds of games don't actually catch professionals. They catch normal people and normal people making foolish choices or mistakes.

If judges have a problem with sugar or after a football game expect the border guards to have the same problem.

Differential access to civil rights are a big part of why I gave up my driver's license.

Pulling over a driver and pointing a gun at them? Trivial. Pulling over a livery vehicle and searching the passenger? Complicated. Demanding someone in a car give you their phone's password? Trivial. Doing the same at the airport? My weekends filled for a month hosting fundraisers for PACs.

I am not sure I understand the last part of your post could you elaborate further?

Some risk averse people are following one rule: Do not carry any electronics at any border crossing. It's a hostile territory.

I travel for few months every year to Europe to work from my home country (I work remotely). After reading so many crazy stories, I have adopted few rules:

I have SSD drive that I use in States. Once I'm ready to go, I swap it with "empty" drive and fire up the OS just to get some updates on files on it, so it doesn't look like it hasn't been used for a long time.

Once in Europe, I put the drive that has more tools and my files I use daily. I also use personal DropBox and the most important files are sync over the net when I login from Europe.

As to the phone - my network doesn't work in Europe anyways, so instead of selling/throwing away my perfectly working Iphone5, I use it in Europe and my new phone I leave in states.

Moreover I cannot say much about driving to Canada, but I was tempted once with saving $150 on a ticket and flying to Europe through Montreal instead of Chicago. That was horrible mistake. That airport is super disorganized and there is literally no staff to help you. No other information than to research for yourself. Few years ago some guy got teased to death because he was so frustrated and I don't blame him...

As of the phone in US, I have jailbroken version with an app that allows me to do a triple-click to shut it down completely. I got used to using this trick when I'm pulled over by LE or entering airports or other places... just in case!

I don't think I would ever give out my password without talking to a lawyer first.

I will take YUL over ORD any day. It's a very well-organized airport. As for the "tasering", it was at YVR (Vancouver). Should I list the number of incidents at US airports?

I can't say about YUL, but ORD is very organized and very prepared for where you may travel to.

To me, that just makes you more suspicious. Last time I had to cross borders CAN/USA/MEX, I just popped my SIM in an old Blackberry Q10 and connected it to a lightly-used email account. Made a few calls and texts in the days leading up to trip.

I reasoned that an old Blackberry is good because there really isn't much you can do with it beyond text/email/web. And it makes me look like a tech-illiterate luddite.

Indeed, from now on I will back up my phone to the cloud, wipe it before going over a border, then reinstalling after. It's the only sane thing to do.

Here's the thing though; you can do that, and it'll protect your data, but any nation can still prevent your entry for exactly that reason.

"Oh, you brought an empty phone? Give me access to your cloud account. No? Ok, you're never entering our country. Bye."

Ultimately yeah, they can refuse you for any reason they want and they don't have to tell you why. You're not a citizen, you don't have a right to enter.

Obviously you'd seed it with some fake data...

lulz, you should assume the NSA has access to anything you store in the "cloud".

Of course, but they already have it, and aren't impeding my travel. The Candian Border Control guys don't, and can.

> (...) but they already have it, and aren't impeding my travel.

But don't be mistaken, that based on the Snowden revelations, "they" may not have already had it, and needed another country's intelligence agency to access it first -- for them to get to whatever it might be, and possibly even use it against you, legally.

The Five Eyes may actually have it - so even if border guys don't, the Canadians may have access.

Okay but I encrypt locally first?

For that you would need to be able to fully trust your cloud storage provider, the ISPs used in transint to and from, the used encryption methods and last but not least: the baseband firmware of your phone.

It's highly unlikely that the Canada Border Services Agency, of all organizations, is able to defeat competent modern crypto implementations.

It's also quite unlikely that they can circumvent a basic `tar -c /dev/block/* | gpg -se ...` scheme that's trivially doable on unlockable Android phones. (Replacing the bootloader with a maliciously crafted variant that returns false partition data after bootup would work, but once again: CBSA.)

You're probably safe if you just do an iCloud backup and wipe followed later by a restore.

Certainly do replace the SIM card as soon as possible though, IMO. Unless you can verify it somehow.

If you are asked to provide your password, encryption will not help you.

Perhaps still better than trusting border patrol with physical access to the device.

No, if you trust the encryption (which implies the firmware), you don't need to trust the ISP or storage provider. That's the whole point of encrypting stuff.

Interestingly, in the case of handing over your phone, there are some odd quirks in security that make things a little topsy turvy. Normally, while the iphone has better device security, in the case where you are conceivably worried about firmware hacks (to the degree you think it's possible), the iphone presents as a juicier target, as the hardware is far more homologous.

This is what I don't get. Would you carry a briefcase over the border filled with confidential documents, photos, love letters, and a porno magazine? Would you think that customs has no right to open it and ask you for the combination of the briefcase is locked?

How is a cell phone any different?

Asking for passwords to Facebook accounts or other information that isn't on your phone, now that's another story.

When crossing the border... backup and factory reset. Don't carry anything with you over the border you don't want customs officers looking at. I just hang onto one of my older phones to use when I travel.

It is different: Cellphone, especially smartphone nowadays, has extended reach.

When your phone is taken away after they forced you enter SU level password, you have no control of it, they do.

Whoever took it inside the room, they can:

>Browser your email, check who you contacted since you have you email box: Why you bought this on amazon? Why you bought that from Ebay? For what reason you purchase two pressure cookers from and nails from Walmart at the same time?

>Check your contacts: Who is Mr.X? When was the last time you talk to Mr. Y? What was in the conversation?

>Check what you have posted on facebook/Twitter. You supported Aaron Swartz? You are in the protest called The Day we Fight Back? What was the protest about? Who you are with?

>You may have home security Cam APP installed: Who sitting in the sofa? How many rooms do you have? Is this your wife? What is her social security number? What is her first name? On the day of Feb 21, 2013, who are the two male visited your home? What's their name and what's the purpose of the visit? How long they stayed in your house? What car they are diving? What is the plate number?

>Copy all your photos for further investation.

>Install Spyware, Copy your RSA key stored in your phone.

Some friends of mine were turned back at the border because they didn't make advance reservations for a hotel and therefore prove their trip really was legit.

That's sad.

Border staff often have a set of rules they have to follow, a lot of it is to ward off attempts at illegal migration.

Getting into America or Canada via that border is rather common.

When I was at the Canadian border once, a woman from Jamaica, with a carload of luggage was denied entry essentially on the same basis - no proof of return travel, reservations etc. - they essentially suspected she was trying to gain illegal status. Which is not entirely unreasonable in that case, but even then, tricky.

The rough part is how normal folks get caught up in the policies.

The one about dope is particularly pernicious - if you admit to 'having ever smoked dope' to American border agents - they can deny you entry for quite a long time. That one's a little crazy-crazy if you ask me, just a bad policy.

I didn't get a good feeling from your comment's contrast between "a woman from Jamaica" and "normal folks".

Surely being from Jamaica is a thing that normal folks do, if that's where they're from.

A) At the Canadian / American physical border crossing, you get mostly Canadians and Americans, not other nationalities.

B) A lone Jamaican, with a car full of luggage

C) No travel reservations

D) Jamaica is a poor country, likely higher rates of immigration issues.

These are red flags.

The 'border game' is a game of probabilities.

Per your last comment, you'd likely hit a three year or ten year bar. If they determine that you ever lied to them about anything, they can bar you from entering the country for life.

My spouse always had to provide my address to customs when he flew in to see me. Without that and a return trip booked, he'd be denied entry. This isn't only the US, however.

When I moved to Norway from the US, I had to have a return flight booked to get entry into the country the first time, otherwise there is a chance of being denied entry, which can really ruin your chances for immigration.

This isn't that uncommon. I nearly had this happen to me traveling to Europe years ago. I wasn't sure where I was going to stay and didn't book a hotel. It was a problem at customs. I believe the same can be true if you don't book a return flight.

I'm sorry this happened to you. I don't think anyone should do this under any pretext - accepting will open you to so much more potential risk than not.

In moments like this, I'm happy to be employed by a large company that has a strong vested interest against people snooping through my emails.

If such a situation were to happen in my case, I would just reply "I cannot do that as this phone belongs to $company. My employer knows of my travel itinerary and if I am delayed they will be very happy to send lawyers to sort things out."

It's sad and dystopian, but I trust my employer to watch out for my interests more so than any government.

I've mused to myself about factory wiping my phone before I travel, since it's simply a matter of getting wifi and time to restore, or if that would only infuriate them more handing them a phone with quite literally nothing installed on it.

The worst part is they aren't looking for anything related to security, they're primarily checking that you're not going to try to work in Canada.

After hearing about these stories on Canada, why would I ever want to go back there? They sound atrocious.

CBSA basically has full authority to censor whatever they wish and detain whomever they wish while they take whatever they wish and search however they wish.

> Don't be fooled

I don't get it. Are you a journalist, too?

No I'm not. I am a 30 year old white guy traveling with my SO on vacation.

Are you a journalist?

Why should journalists have more rights than ordinary civilians?

They shouldn't, legitimate "press freedoms" don't belong to a special journalistic class, they protect activities no matter who is engaged in them.

US government seems to think that there is, in fact, a special journalistic class:

https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/employment/media.h...

US immigration policies aren't even in principle based on any conception of rights, but of national interest.

So that the rest of us can stay informed and sources can be protected. The tricky hit is regulating who is a journalist - bloggers here in NZ are running into this.

But do you trust the same governments hassling journalists at the border and rooting through their electronic data to decide who is, and is not, a journalist?

That's pretty much exactly what I was getting at - the journalists police the state, but the state polices the journalists.

What makes you think you can trust the journalists to keep you correctly informed?

I read a story on /r/hentai (yes, bear with me) who said that he was stopped at the Canadian border and they searched his laptop. In his browser image cache they found drawings of fictional characters who appeared to be under the age of 18 engaged in sexual acts. They detained him for a day (or two, I can't remember) and confiscated his laptop permanently.

Laws like this are silly, horrible, and have no place in a democracy. Even disgusting speech ought to be defended.

Canada, the UK and NZ (edit: and Australia, where someone was, I believe, jailed for having "Simpsons porn" on his computer) are places that I know have laws like this. As a citizen of one of these places, it worries me greatly, even though I am not interested in such drawings. It actually enrages me, far more than any other problem in the Western world.

Please be careful when crossing borders.

> Laws like this are silly, horrible, and have no place in a democracy. Even disgusting speech ought to be defended.

I agree. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge I would guess these cases would not hold up to the scrutiny of the supreme court, if they were ever brought there.

As a non legal expert, my reading has been that the Supreme Court usually has, at least in the past, set a very high bar in ruling against free expression, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_v._Massachusetts

Maybe someone has a more educated opinion than I, though.

I really don't want to see our Bill of Rights torn apart. As one user said here, they have a theory these policies serve a purpose to acclimate us to a new kind of authoritarian government. I have a lot of personal family pride in fighting for civil and human rights, and I am personally troubled by what seems to be an ever-steady march towards 1984, if we're not already there.

> Canada, the UK and NZ (edit: and Australia, where someone was, I believe, jailed for having "Simpsons porn" on his computer) are places that I know have laws like this.

By the way, NZ is particularly outrageous and ridiculous with these laws. What I find particularly bemusing is that while in NZ has they can ban a book for mainstream sexual content with little quarrel, Auckland has a visible prostitution market. I'm not necessarily saying one thing or another about prostitution, but I think it says something about the recklessness with free speech there. Their failed War on Drugs is also outrageous, arguably the highest per-capita WoD programs in the world, and is expanding.

To be clear: Auckland has a _legal_ prostitution industry, as does the rest of NZ. The censorship board can indeed ban certain media, but it's never really an issue here.

Yea, I know, I think it's crazy.

> it's never really an issue here.

Fair enough, but I think that's an opinion we just disagree on.

Someone posted under this topic the idea that the point of these violations of civil liberties, even if "they aren't really an issue," is exactly that: to acclimate us to think, "it's not really an issue."

Freedom of expression is something I believe we are very lucky to have, people have fought and died for much lesser freedoms. Banning books is a threatening move by government and something that should happen only in utterly extreme circumstances, if at all. In this case, Auckland has not just a legal, but a visible, obvious prostitution market. I think the age of consent there is even 16(?) yet that same teenager couldn't even buy this book on the topic of sex. It's very much just kind of ridiculous.

The country also spends just about the most in the world on its War on Drugs (per capita), so maybe it's no wonder the police didn't have the time when one friendly traveller at a hostel got his orbital bone broken by some local thugs, or when at another hostel someone had their backpack stolen.

An episode of Border Security had a furry trying to enter Canada, complete with the border guards trying to work out if furry porn counted as bestiality porn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y_5b1JsIs4

It's probably best to not draw attention to yourself when crossing borders. i.e., don't wear a giant tail when talking to border guards.

What recourse does one have when a device is seized? These things aren't cheap and I'd feel a bit better knowing that my sole option wasn't "save up for a new one."

At this point? Save up for a new one, pay a hundred times its cost to a lawyer to maybe have it back, or start a revolution and overthrow the government.

And it's about to get worse for Canadians:

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/cnslttns/ntnl-scrt/thm09-...

Please take time to answer this survey if you are a Canadian. It took me over an hour and a half today, but it's worth it. You can find some answers at https://mascherari.press/canadas-online-consultation-on-nati... (including mine after moderation, I hope)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention so I could give them my thoughts on these matters.

"Sorry, I don't remember the passcode," or say the phone isn't yours.

>"Sorry, I don't remember the passcode," or say the phone isn't yours.

Then you get detained. Indefinitely if they believe you to be lying.

Do you think they'll let you go with this excuse?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com