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Comment by Compulsion | Hacker News Reader

First life hack: make sure you want to live in Europe.

I like the parts of Europe I've been to (Germany, Ireland, France, Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands)

Having said that, don't expect it to be better than wherever you are. There is no promised land.

I'm saying this even though I work for a large company with offices throughout Europe. I could transfer without any difficulty and get paid relocation to my choice of cool European cities. That's not to sound braggy, just to say that just because you have the opportunity it's worth considering whether its worth the jump for you.

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I miss the small familiarities when abroad. Small things like the style of windows, houses, roads, smells. Also, national forests.

Bigger things: being a native speaker, knowing how all the institutions (schools, churches, etc.) work. Never having to learn subtle stuff about how to interact in this or that rare situation. Being a citizen of the place you live. Being near family.

Leaving your home country has a lot of drawbacks, no matter where you are from or where you are going to.

> Small things like the style of windows,

German windows design and their obsession with fresh air is such a subtle but absolutely fantastic part of their culture IMHO.

Right, German windows are better in every way. I didn't say my nostalgia for home was at all rational :-)

I love Japanese roofs!

It is never a practical thing, and it happens even while you are happy where you land.

I really enjoy living in Norway. I miss the color of dirt and smell where I was in the US. I still find the color weird. It isn't to say that I don't like it or that one is better or worse, really, just one is more familiar. SImple as that.

> Leaving your home country has a lot of drawbacks, no matter where you are from or where you are going to.

So true. I emigrated three times. I learned a lot. But there was so much sacrifice that I ask myself now and then if it was worth it.

For me - aside from being far from my family - this is a list of benefits, not drawbacks. I love the process of getting to know my new environment.

In addition to being an intellectually interesting exercise, every little change makes me just that much better at being able to examine problems from different angles and reframe my perspective when necessary.

This isn't to say it's always a walk in the park, of course. My first move from the US to China was a little rough, but totally worth it in the end.

All those little things you listed are precisely what's interesting about relocating. The broad strokes of life are defined by income level everywhere, the details not. The details are interesting (to me).

Having spent 15+ years in Europe, mostly in Italy, but also Austria, now I'm familiar with how two places work. I feel I'm better off for it, as it helps me think about what works and what doesn't in different places.

Language is also something to look into, and varies quite a lot across Europe (both the languages, and how common multilingualism is). You can get hired in tech with only English fluency in many countries, but how easily varies, and how easily you can carry on daily life varies even more. For example you can get many jobs in both Copenhagen and Berlin speaking only English, but in Copenhagen you can also do almost everything else in English (government agencies all speak English, most forms are bilingual Danish/English, banks and doctors' offices all do English, etc.), whereas in Germany the civil service, and even things like doctors, generally expect you to interact with them in German. Not that you shouldn't also learn some Danish in Denmark, but how critical it is to quickly become fluent in the national language(s) varies a lot between countries.

I lived with a friend in Germany for several months and there were several things that did require German. Anything related to her visa and immigration (which you had to book appointments for a week in advance) require you fill out paperwork and speak in German. It was the same for her taxes.

Her German was good, but one thing that stressed her out was dealing with banks/money. She didn't want to screw up, but her banks would refuse to let her communicate in English on phone calls (this might be a rule/liability thing).

A lot of people do speak English, especially younger people as it's generally taught in primary school, but I also met many young adults, even in large cities like Munich, who didn't.

I'm from Czech and pretty much everyone under 30 speaks fluent English. Old elementary school friends could hold a normal discussion without skipping a beat.

But boy, the second I went into the old part of my childhood town and wanted to get some food from the bakery, not a single person could understand English (which is fine because I speak fluent Czech).

I had a situation about a decade and a half ago when a french person stopped by a gas station and the clerk could not, for the life of him, communicate with the french guy but within ten minutes, a bunch of teenagers were able to translate.

So it's not just official stuff (which makes sense) but also an age and location thing like you said. If you break down on the high way, stop at an old town, or try to deal with an establishment is generally run by someone over the age of 40, you can find yourself in an uncomfortable situation.

However, I'm kind of surprised at the bank thing.

In bank or medical situations you can run into situations where even though the people all know English, they might not have the necessary vocabulary to express themselves in English or lack certification proving they do. Anyone who doesn't want to fuck up simply won't use English and require a translator.

I think this is something different in Denmark mainly because, since it's such a small country, a Danish person in these sectors needs to be comfortable with the relevant technical English vocabulary anyway, even when not interacting with foreigners. Many materials are not translated into Danish, especially when you get past the introductory textbook level, so there's an expectation that if you're in a high-skill, university-qualified profession, you can read/write and speak professional English. ("Professional" here meaning that you have a working English knowledge of your own profession, not necessarily that you can talk about all subjects in English.)

How can you be sure you want to live in Europe without living in Europe?

As a Brit who's lived and worked in Australia and the Netherlands: just take the freaking plunge. It won't be the end of the world if you decide you're not happy and want to move back, and if it works out, imagine the possibilities.

As someone who is thinking of taking the plunge for Australia:

What are you thoughts on life there compared to the UK and NL? Especially as a software engineer.

Australia is a fantastic place to live. People are very friendly, though it's a little more like the NL than the UK in that many people tend to stay friends with their old school friends rather than being very outwardly social, forming lasting friendships with strangers like I experienced in the UK.

The weather is amazing, though the north is very hot in summer (duh) and the south gets its share of rain. NSW is pretty fantastic year round.

When I was there I worked for a tiny games company for a couple of years, one of the best work experiences of my life actually. The pay wasn't great but quality of life was good (I was in Brisbane).

Try it! You will never know if you don't! :)

On the other hand if you are young and tempted, go for it! Moving internationally gets so much harder when you have a partner, house, family etc., even if an employer is paying.

A lot of countries have a live/work visa for people under 30.

As an Eastern European that's a very good point you make. I'm still living and working in my home-country, unlike many of my peers, but were I move westward I'd only do it to a city which I've previously visited as a tourist and I liked. So as a suggestion to US people wanting to relocate to Europe, before you make the move maybe it'd be worth visiting your target location at least for 3 or 4 days.

Technology law in Europe is even worse than it is in the US, if you can believe it. Something important for entrepreneurs/hackers to consider.

Can you elaborate? I've always heard this but never with any details.

Most prominently, a mere collection of facts can be copyrighted by someone in Europe as long as that entity spent substantial effort collecting/collating/displaying it (the "Database Directive"). In the US, a minimum amount of creativity is required before a work is considered copyrightable per Feist v. Rural Telephone Co.. This can have a serious effect on which datasets are free for your program to use.

Both the US and the EU have a long history of shutting down companies that incorporate "screen scraping" to gather data, even if that data is freely available or owned by the entity controlling the scraper. But the EU may shut you down whether you contact someone's server or not, on the basis of violating database ownership.

I'm not a lawyer in either jurisdiction so this is just based on my layman's knowledge and may not be complete.

I guess I don't get the database IP laws - are they copyrighting the actual information or the source of the information?

- The cookie law: https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/

- In Germany if you put up a web site that has to contain a site imprint. If you don't put all the required informations on it, you can easily get sued.

- In Germany if you put up an open WiFi, if you don't pay a lot of attention on the legal details, it can easily happen that you get sued if someone does something illegal on your open WiFi (Mitstörerhaftung; the internet dictionary that I use does not even know how this can be translated to English, because such a concept seems to be unheard of in English-speaking countries).

- The Datenschutzgesetz (data protection act). While I consider it as a good idea, it is very foreign for people from the US. You are only allowed to store as few data as necessary on a person and if necessary you have to anonymize or pseudonomize the data:

> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bdsg_1990/__3a.html

You also have a right to get information what data is stored about you:

> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bdsg_1990/__19.html

Such laws caused problems for Facebook: http://europe-v-facebook.org/EN/en.html

- The (in)famous §202c StGB: https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/202c.html which makes it a dangerous legal gray zone to to security research.

Thanks - I've always known about the cookie law but not those other acts. It does seem harder for a tech company.

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