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Comment by grownseed | Hacker News Reader

A few points I think are relevant:

- I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...

- as a friend of mine pointed out, Canada is not a consolation prize for disgruntled americans, it's a real country, with its own real people and its own real problems

- having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money, it was a harrowing process. Clogging the already dysfunctional immigration system en masse as a whim is not just stupid, it's insulting to people currently going through immigration, and downright threatening to people who are in very real danger

If you're a disgruntled US citizen, I can understand your frustration, but please don't take this lightly.

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> I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly

I have some fairly close friends who are Muslim, Latino, and LGBT. Trump has been quite nasty towards the first two groups, and his running mate (likely to be one of the most powerful VPs in US history) makes no secret of opposing the rights of the latter group. This morning I'm hearing all of them express legitimate fear for their future. I'm not saying that running to Canada is the answer for them or anyone else, but this is not your typical "generic Republican vs generic Democrat, boo-hoo my side lost" post-election complaining.

While taking a deep breath to avoid hyperbole about Trump, it might be worth pointing out that the 9th of November is the anniversary for the Kristallnacht:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

Now, I honestly don't think Trump will be as bad as Mussolini, Franco or Hitler - but we do have some fairly horrifying recent precedent for what might happen when a right-wing populist gains power during an economic crisis.

I don't think the fact that the US have spent years getting ready for, in the words of Edward Snowden(?): "turn key totalitarianism", along with a radical militarization of the police force makes much of an improvement.

That said:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/trump-victory-clinton-san...

"Politics Is the Solution

We can’t move to Canada or hide under the bed. This is a moment to embrace democratic politics, not repudiate them."

there were people in the early 30's in Germany and across the world that, at that time, did not think that Hitler would go full-blown Hitler. because it was unthinkable madness

yet he did

and he told everybody in advance what he wanted to do. in Mein Kampf, at the very least

This.

And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people. That it was time to man/woman up. But because they lost they now feel like they lost all.

That feeling is what drove Trump voters --they have lost their way of life. The one where one didn't have to have a graduate degree to have a stable and dependable income --but these people don't have them means to "run to Canada (or Mexico)".

And Bernie warned the Hillary campaign of this but she thought she had white women in the bag as well as thinking Hispanics voting democratic would pull it out for her.

>And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people

Hillary wasn't threatening groups of people. Muslims, gays, transgender people, and more are actually in for a worse time in this country. It's not always about just being disgruntled.

While Trump says he will introduce a temporary ban Muslims from problematic places, I don't think I heard him speak against LGBTQ issues --if anything this is one of the things which made "conservative" republicans nervous about him --that in that regard he's pretty open minded (You'd imagine if he had Thiel speak at his convention, that kind of tips his hand). Also saying he didn't care what restroom Caitlin Jenner chose to use at his properties.

Have you seen our new Vice President? He supports literal torture of gay people. That's not even hyperbole.The only "pro-LGBT" thing Trump has ever done was use the Orlando shooting as a way to attack Muslims.

Sure, but it's not just Trump, his VP and political senior is a man that advocates openly for conversion therapy. That's where their very legitimate fear comes from.

> You'd imagine if he had Thiel speak at his convention, that kind of tips his hand

He also had Ben Carson speak, but the KKK didn't seem to be dissuaded by that.

Do you think no KKK-er voted for Hillary? I'm sure it's a small Venn diagram but I'm sure there were. Just because people will identify with a candidate does not mean the candidate represents their views. We also saw more black voters vote for Trump than voted for Romney...

I imagine probably a handful of random KKK members voted for Hillary (there will always be a couple of outliers in any large group), but I don't see what difference that makes. Trump was literally endorsed by the Klan's official newspaper as well as by David Duke himself. This wasn't some random Klansmen voting their conscience — the Klan officially supported Trump and didn't mind having Carson as an ally (why would they? It allows them to say stuff like "How can we be so bad for black people if this black guy is on our side?").

> having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money

Slightly off topic:

I've been through the process as well and accept the frustrations but I didn't not think the costs were unreasonable. I only had to pay CIC application fees. How was the process harrowing for you? Not defending the frustration, just curious I guess.

Compare it to US immigration also, where I got 6 years and easily over $20,000 in employer-paid costs in, and didn't even get to the green card stage.

[EDIT] Overstated cost, ran the numbers it's $20-25K.

That's ridiculous.

I moved to Germany from Canada a few years ago when I was in my mid-20s. Nothing wrong with Canada, I was just bored.

I came to Germany on a tourist visa and found a job by sending my CV to random German technology companies I found via LinkedIn.

The Blue Card (EU equivalent of a Green Card) cost all of 135 EUR and is valid for four years. The processing time for the Blue Card is around 6 weeks after application, but I think that's pretty standard for bureaucracy in any country.

Getting my Canadian Bachelor of Engineering recognized as a German equivalent degree cost 200 EUR and took 3 months.

You'll also need one biometric (passport) photo, which if you use a machine at any of the train stations will cost around 6 EUR. You can use the remaining 5 photos for things like getting a German driver's license, health card, etc.

I paid ADAC around 40 EUR to "translate" my Canadian driver's license into German, and then around 50 EUR to exchange it for a German Führerschein.

Total visa/admin cost for a comparable life in Germany: 450 EUR

Now, I have spent around 3000 EUR for language courses over the past several years, but I'm getting pretty fluent in German, so I'd consider it money well spent. If you were more self-motivated I'm sure you could study the language by just getting the textbooks and watching YouTube videos.

FWIW the breakdown looks like this (for me):

Initially entered on a TN, a lawyer will charge approximately $2,000 to prepare the letter. Luckily the filing fee here is $50.

Converted to an H-1B, for which filing fees are $3050 (including premium processing of course). This carries with it a legal cost of up to $3000 for preparing the paperwork and shepherding it through, so $6050.

Moved my H-1B to a new employer, that's another $6050 for the new employer.

That gets us close to the $15,000 mark.

Next, a PERM petition was prepared which costs approximately $3000 in legal fees, in addition to advertising a job for at least 6 months including 2 Sundays in the local newspaper, and interviewing each candidate that shows up.

And six years.

So I guess I was off, but it definitely didn't cost less than $20,000 -- probably closer to $25,000 if you take into account the employer burden of PERM interviews.

You have a point, I think the costs probably depend on a lot of factors, and I suppose a "lot of money" is relative. I expressed some of my frustrations in this rather long comment here [0]. I went through CEC, and in order to get points I had to pass language exams in English and in French, even though I have certified Education in both languages, had to certify my degree, get background checks for a number of countries, etc. It all added up very quickly for me, but that likely varies from person to person. That said, I'm aware that I'm luckier than most.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11879503

I wouldn't worry about it. Threatening to move to Canada after a political loss is a time-honored American tradition, and not one which produces much in the way of concrete results.

Assuming it's not crashed by the minorities who are likely to feel the brunt of the policy changes... I'm having a lot of very sober conversations with my immigrant friends.

Please keep in mind that many people currently living in the US may feel that they are in "very real danger", or may be soon.

We're not taking this lightly. I'm not "disgruntled", I'm concerned that my friends and family may face persecution, disenfranchisement, or even death (eg; nuclear war).

You may think that's unlikely, but please respect that it would be reasonable to estimate a nontrivial risk of catastrophe in the US.

Congratulations on your residence status.

I think we're safer from nuclear war now, at least in the short-term. Hillary was going to continue the hard-line against Russia. Trump will likely come to a civilized agreement with them that deescalates the situation. There's no secret that he's Putin's favorite candidate (while the rest of Europe is in shock right now.)

More concerning is his policy with regard to Iran, but the current treaty covers our butts in the short term, while giving the Iranians a sure shot at nuclear capability down the road. Once they get nukes, the Saudis will want them too and the world will be a few minutes closer to midnight. It remains to be seen if Trump will make the situation better or worse.

It's his personality, not his policy, that worries most people.

They're not leaving the country. Their country left them.

That's ironic, considering that's how most Trump voters feel.

> - I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...

Leaving your entire life, job, family behind for principals is cowardly?

What rubbish. It's amazingly brave.

This is on par with calling suicide bombers cowardly.

To be quite frank cowardice is doing nothing and calling others cowards.

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