Canada's immigration website crashes on election night
ctvnews.ca
ctvnews.ca
- I find leaving your country only because you didn't vote for the winner is rather cowardly, you can still do something about it, we're not quite talking systemic harassment yet...
- as a friend of mine pointed out, Canada is not a consolation prize for disgruntled americans, it's a real country, with its own real people and its own real problems
- having just aquired my canadian permanent residence after years and lots of money, it was a harrowing process. Clogging the already dysfunctional immigration system en masse as a whim is not just stupid, it's insulting to people currently going through immigration, and downright threatening to people who are in very real danger
If you're a disgruntled US citizen, I can understand your frustration, but please don't take this lightly.
Slightly off topic:
I've been through the process as well and accept the frustrations but I didn't not think the costs were unreasonable. I only had to pay CIC application fees. How was the process harrowing for you? Not defending the frustration, just curious I guess.
[EDIT] Overstated cost, ran the numbers it's $20-25K.
I moved to Germany from Canada a few years ago when I was in my mid-20s. Nothing wrong with Canada, I was just bored.
I came to Germany on a tourist visa and found a job by sending my CV to random German technology companies I found via LinkedIn.
The Blue Card (EU equivalent of a Green Card) cost all of 135 EUR and is valid for four years. The processing time for the Blue Card is around 6 weeks after application, but I think that's pretty standard for bureaucracy in any country.
Getting my Canadian Bachelor of Engineering recognized as a German equivalent degree cost 200 EUR and took 3 months.
You'll also need one biometric (passport) photo, which if you use a machine at any of the train stations will cost around 6 EUR. You can use the remaining 5 photos for things like getting a German driver's license, health card, etc.
I paid ADAC around 40 EUR to "translate" my Canadian driver's license into German, and then around 50 EUR to exchange it for a German Führerschein.
Total visa/admin cost for a comparable life in Germany: 450 EUR
Now, I have spent around 3000 EUR for language courses over the past several years, but I'm getting pretty fluent in German, so I'd consider it money well spent. If you were more self-motivated I'm sure you could study the language by just getting the textbooks and watching YouTube videos.
Initially entered on a TN, a lawyer will charge approximately $2,000 to prepare the letter. Luckily the filing fee here is $50.
Converted to an H-1B, for which filing fees are $3050 (including premium processing of course). This carries with it a legal cost of up to $3000 for preparing the paperwork and shepherding it through, so $6050.
Moved my H-1B to a new employer, that's another $6050 for the new employer.
That gets us close to the $15,000 mark.
Next, a PERM petition was prepared which costs approximately $3000 in legal fees, in addition to advertising a job for at least 6 months including 2 Sundays in the local newspaper, and interviewing each candidate that shows up.
And six years.
So I guess I was off, but it definitely didn't cost less than $20,000 -- probably closer to $25,000 if you take into account the employer burden of PERM interviews.
And somewhat ironically, if Hillary had won people would be telling those disenfranchised voters who broke for Trump to listen to the will of the people. That it was time to man/woman up. But because they lost they now feel like they lost all.
That feeling is what drove Trump voters --they have lost their way of life. The one where one didn't have to have a graduate degree to have a stable and dependable income --but these people don't have them means to "run to Canada (or Mexico)".
And Bernie warned the Hillary campaign of this but she thought she had white women in the bag as well as thinking Hispanics voting democratic would pull it out for her.
Hillary wasn't threatening groups of people. Muslims, gays, transgender people, and more are actually in for a worse time in this country. It's not always about just being disgruntled.
He also had Ben Carson speak, but the KKK didn't seem to be dissuaded by that.
I have some fairly close friends who are Muslim, Latino, and LGBT. Trump has been quite nasty towards the first two groups, and his running mate (likely to be one of the most powerful VPs in US history) makes no secret of opposing the rights of the latter group. This morning I'm hearing all of them express legitimate fear for their future. I'm not saying that running to Canada is the answer for them or anyone else, but this is not your typical "generic Republican vs generic Democrat, boo-hoo my side lost" post-election complaining.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
Now, I honestly don't think Trump will be as bad as Mussolini, Franco or Hitler - but we do have some fairly horrifying recent precedent for what might happen when a right-wing populist gains power during an economic crisis.
I don't think the fact that the US have spent years getting ready for, in the words of Edward Snowden(?): "turn key totalitarianism", along with a radical militarization of the police force makes much of an improvement.
That said:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/trump-victory-clinton-san...
"Politics Is the Solution
We can’t move to Canada or hide under the bed. This is a moment to embrace democratic politics, not repudiate them."
yet he did
and he told everybody in advance what he wanted to do. in Mein Kampf, at the very least
We're not taking this lightly. I'm not "disgruntled", I'm concerned that my friends and family may face persecution, disenfranchisement, or even death (eg; nuclear war).
You may think that's unlikely, but please respect that it would be reasonable to estimate a nontrivial risk of catastrophe in the US.
Congratulations on your residence status.
More concerning is his policy with regard to Iran, but the current treaty covers our butts in the short term, while giving the Iranians a sure shot at nuclear capability down the road. Once they get nukes, the Saudis will want them too and the world will be a few minutes closer to midnight. It remains to be seen if Trump will make the situation better or worse.
Leaving your entire life, job, family behind for principals is cowardly?
What rubbish. It's amazingly brave.
This is on par with calling suicide bombers cowardly.
To be quite frank cowardice is doing nothing and calling others cowards.
Don't get me wrong, I love living in Canada and I mostly don't miss living in Bay Area, but most of my friends lament the fact that their salary and career opportunities are a joke compared to what they could have in the U.S. (even adjusting for cost of living).
Besides, money isn't everything. There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites, and insane levels of violence too. Not to mention the impact this will have on the SCOTUS, and how incredibly screwed up healthcare is.
Just live your life and be happy, vote when you can but don't let what you don't control make you sad.
This is a huge deal.
I am talking about civil liberties in general. The mechanism for gay marriage would be similar.
As a footnote, yes, I have read the decision and I have read my constitution. Furthermore I don't think this is the right place for those kinds of ad-hominem attacks.
Not giving Federal taxpayer money to PP doesn't stop them from doing abortions (they officially claim they use no taxpayer funds for abortion anyway), and you can't ban abortion via statute due to Roe v Wade having supremacy. (BTW, PP does a minority of abortions in the USA.)
Even if the USSC wanted to replace Roe v Wade, they can't just do that by decree. A relevant case that would give them that nexus would have to navigate itself all the way up the chain from Federal court through the corresponding Court of Appeals (assuming they even hear the case), winning all the way in courts laden with Obama appointees, to even get on the USSC's radar.
You didn't understand what you claim to have read.
But even if it DID pass the House, the Senate would just filibuster it.
And even if by some miracle one was passed and signed, it would hit an immediate injunction from the Federal court of the abortion-backers' choice, using Roe as a precedent.
The concept makes for a good scare tactic to raise contributions and volunteers, but it goes nowhere in the real world.
Why do you believe this? On a night when the traditional polling and data mechanisms we have come to rely on have proven totally fallible, I have a hard time trusting ANY proposed split.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_State...
So the left has been pushing 'back-door' laws that would do the same thing, effectively: huge taxes on ammo, letting manufactures be legally liable crimes committed with their sold weapons, etc.
Regardless of your views on guns, it is the 2nd Amendment - if the left wants to change it, there is a method to change the Constitution. Executive decisions and other nefarious schemas shouldn't be accepted.
I hope, as an European, Trump will be pro NATO enough to keep Putin from invading more countries...
Let's hope that Trump will look at who buys US stuff and who doesn't. And Russia is too badly managed to have a good economy and be a good partner for trade.
Nothing positive about Clinton implied, either.
[0] The Swedish ex communists have declared themselves a feminist party -- but stamp it as "racist" when immigrant women have problems with oppression in the immigrant areas... :-) They are courting the intolerant immigrant votes. I would dare anyone to find any more hypocritical political example anywhere, but... sadly, there certainly are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC - aka "Companies are people and money is free speech"
As for money being free speech, the equivalence is that in general it costs money to publicize views. The FEC has limits on what you can do with the money (you're not supposed to buy jewelry or fancy vacations) and where it can come from.
If Clinton won, the republicans would probably have held one or both houses, which seems like significant checks on power even if she could have a more friendly supreme court than Obama.
Certainly I doubt our founders thought an entire political party would control every single branch of government. But even if it does the only things that can be accomplished need to be agreed upon by that large group of people. If the will of the people is to elect a group of people into those positions that all hold the same philosophy and values, then that's just democracy. It's what we voted for. I don't know if any party has controlled all three branches of government at once, but it's not like that negates the principle of checks and balances
Political parties are just another application which happens to run well on top of the same OS.
I think we are closer to uncharted territory than a lot of people assume.
I mean, unless you're incredibly wealthy, and don't care about anyone else at all.
Live somewhere like CA? Hard to see the state government or Supreme Court rolling things back too terribly. Health insurance if you don't have a good job would be a big question mark, would be nice to see the state pick that up.
Live in a state where the legislature is inclined to pass laws against your sexuality, religion, etc? That's a much more vulnerable position.
IMO a much larger problem than Trump is the structural favoritism in the American political system towards less-populated areas. This has a lot to do with how Obama's last term was largely sabotaged as well, after all.
Thomas Jefferson
Clinton's projected by the NY Times to win the popular vote by 1.2% right now. That's hardly a huge mandate for a singular agenda. It's a margin that would still be at massive risk if people continued ignoring those non-coastal populations feeling economically left behind.
Instead, despite that 1.2% lead for the Democratic presidential candidate, that party will be the minority party in every branch of government? That's a better, fairer system?
Structurally separating everyone into groups drifting further and further apart for everyone is a recipe for a system that can't get much useful stuff done.
(And the media ate up the Trump campaign despite it being incredibly unappealing to those small coastal bands. Nobody build an unassailable media monopoly by ignoring something like 48% of the population.)
You can't be sure that if, instead, the popular vote were used that she would have taken a different platform that was soundly rejected by most states but secured her a much larger popular vote margin.
So much for any of their projections. The actual popular vote difference is 202,340 -- less than 0.17% of votes cast.
By what specific mechanism could a Trump presidency cause them to lose access to birth control or abortion?
The trend in the House and Senate and many state governments since 2008 is far more concerning to me than Trump's election.
Did you forget that the Democrats controlled the House and Senate until 2011? In fact, the Democrats had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate until February of 2010.
Trump also doesn't seem to have much of a view at all, during campaign he expressed one thing and its opposite multiple times, he craves attention and acceptance and if the GOP does that (and lets him enact the petty revenges he's know for) I don't expect he'll have any issue enacting evangelical policies. Hell, he explicitly stated he'd leave the presidential busywork to his VP.
See Currier:
- http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/currier-v-jackson...
- https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/01/mississippi-abortion-cli...
Also see Whole Woman's Health:
- http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/whole-womans-heal...
- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/us/supreme-court-texas-abo...
These things don't matter until they really, really, really do. Having seen the grass on both sides of the fence, I can attest that it really can be meaningfully greener.
In the US, as I say, this would not have been covered by my insurance, and would have cost around $50,000 to fix. Completely infeasible for me to find that amount of money. The NHS did an excellent job of fixing it for free.
I wonder how is that possible? Insurance plans these days have to cover you even if you have a pre-existing condition, even the cheapest plans cover everything after a deductible, unless I am missing something
I don't think the Republicans have enough people in the Senate to block filibusters. So I assume the Democrats will use the filibuster to block repeals of the healthcare law.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/upshot/the-future-of-obama...
Boom. Now Obamacare can be repealed with simple majority. I bet you dollars to donuts that insurance prices, however, will not go back down to pre-Obamacare prices. Because profits.
Sounds simplistic but if you look at the system as a whole, ask who its benefitting the most, doesnt seem to be the electorate.
We have the same problem in the UK, it got us Brexit and you folks Trump.
As Michael Moore said when he predicted a trump win, "It's the biggest fuck you they can send".
Average rent ranges from $500-$3600/mth though for illustrative purposes (taking into account people in expensive places share) let's use $1K/mth for our hypothetical person. [3]
That leaves you with $16K/yr (male) and $7K/yr (female) for food, transportation and incidental expenses.
Obamacare backed health plans have a maximum out-of-pocket of $7K/yr for individuals.
Yeah, I'd say the median American is pretty much SOL if they get sick even if they have insurance. And those figures don't take into account the price of the insurance itself if your employer elects not to provide it to you.
In the UK your NHS annual out-of-pocket maximum is $0.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
[2] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator
[3] http://mentalfloss.com/article/81296/average-cost-one-bedroo...
[4] https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/out-of-pocket-maximum-li...
US median individual wage is $39K/yr for males and $26.5K/yr for females [1]. That amounts to an after-total-tax (for a California resident) of $28K/yr for males and $19K/yr for females.
The tax calculator you reference includes estimates of sales, property, and fuel taxes (which make up much of the tax total at the incomes here), which are actually rolled into rent, transportation, and general purchases, so you are double counting some expenses.
At least the standard employment sponsored plans.
I thought my first (awful) plan had a benefit limit, as in you're getting a maximum of $1.25M from us, regardless of what happens.
My family has easily hit the pre-Obamacare lifetime coverage limits and fairly frequently would've hit the annual ones. Our $4k out-of-pocket cap saves us from 10-50k in coinsurance/copays depending on the year. As a result, they'd drop us in a heartbeat if they could.
Soon, it looks like they'll be able to.
Based on what? You are just speculating now
That's public money going to the private sector for no real benefit.
Like Obamas presidency. For every good he's done or tried to do, all the shit in the world that affects the US (and even things that are not real apparently) gets pinned on him, regardless of cause.
And sure, Obamacare probably has a lot of faults, but is that because of its concept, because of congressional gridlock, or compromises?
I won't argue either way, but it's always sad when something gets dismantled or at least scolded for reasons outside of its grasp.
I don't know enough about NHS to say, but spending £600M/year on management consultants doesn't sound like a healthcare problem.
I'm not religious, but it's the same with Islam being lumped together with extremists, Christianity being lumped in with crusades and westboro baptists and other lunatics, and both republicans and liberals being categorized by a few vocal idiots.
Sometimes you have to try to look objectively at something and the faults alongside it, and try to determine if they are one and the same. Sometimes it's worth fighting to improve something instead of just burning it to the ground, because there's a good chance the new foundation being built is worse than what you destroyed.
We just let them do it because we (collective we) have grown so used to having it we can't remember what it was like before, people dying from treatable conditions because they couldn't afford it, average life expectancy been a whole decade lower (or more) etc.
We (again collective) won't realise what we had until it's gone.
And with the ability to set a Justice and a party dominated House and Senate, it does not look very good for "checks and balances" over the next 4 years.
And that of course assumes you're not subject to deportation for whatever reason. If Trump keeps any of his campaign promises we will be seeing many people forced out of the country. No idea what the extent of that will be, and at least some people here are first generation and claim to be anchors.
That said, god I love Denmark.
Also northern lights should be spectacular.
(Source: own experience)
This is what I like over here:
- Big city but you can walk almost everywhere - Weather is great - Airport is 20min subway from city centre - People are friendly, most speak some sort of english - Tech scene is getting better every year - No gentrification yet
There are advantages on being on central or northern europe instead, but if I was in my 20s I would definitely come to Lisbon.
However, if you decide to live outside of Lisbon where rents are very high, that amount of money is enough for you to live well and even save some money if you're somewhat frugal. Also, the weather is usually quite nice here, and if you're into that kind of things, there's a booming tech scene is Lisbon (web summit is here for this week).
Unfortunately, most of the jobs people take here are on outsourcing companies, but there is an increasing number of jobs available on local startups. If you're planning to move here, check jobs in http://landing.jobs/ (mostly startups).
US has huge internal markets - I would see this as the main benefit. Otherwise than that, if you make an actual good product, know marketing and are not terribly dependent on US VC money (which is hardly the only source of capital) I fail to to see the problem.
Sure, there are laws for holidays and such but that does not limit business, IMO, only the amount of arbitrary power employers have over their employees. It does not limit global market opportunities in any way.
It would be harder to launch a service like Uber though that tries to take on entrenched incumbent local players. Target global b2b or consumer markets and the problem goes away.
All of this is my personal understanding, and I might be wrong. If so, then please educate me with countering facts.
Most of the big business in Europe is either 1. American 2. state owned or 3. companies founded before before WW1. It's almost impossible to launch a company with a growth rate compared to that of Uber in Europe. You would get kocked down by taxes and regulations before you know it.
I'm pretty sure the market is filled with unregulated niches that don't require you to shift the balance of the universe to be successful.
Yes, US seems to be winning in terms of environment which facilitates the rapid growth of paradigm shifting companies. I did not claim otherwise - I merely countered the proposal that it would be counterproductive to try to do business in Europe altogether. Not as inducive to growth is a different thing from disabling profitable companies altogether.
I'm hard pressed to quantify the quality of public healthcare. Patient outcomes are a different thing than what the service feels like. I agree, it's sometimes painstakingly hard to find good healthcare but in my experience that applies to both public and private as equally - the more rare the condition, the harder it is to find a helpful diagnosis and a plan to proceed.
The professional capability of the tending doctor is the most critical factor. I've met outstanding professionals in the public space and private clinic doctors who have been sloppy and unattentive - and vise versa.
Of course, if budgets strain, the quality of care decreases.
I'm in Norway. There is public health care. Sometimes there is a wait, sometimes not. You have the option to pay for private care, if you want. But I'm never going to have to worry about not being able to afford care. This alone makes a huge lifestyle change. Not just for me: But for children and lots of other folks as well.
In addition, some caveats of care are much better here. You can choose the cheaper but better outcomed care option. For example, they send a nurse out to someone's house up to 6 times a day before someone is eligible for a nursing home. Even if you live in a secluded spot on a mountain or island. Why? It is cheaper and folks tend to live longer this way.
You're not eligible for the home health benefit if you need more than part-time or "intermittent" skilled nursing care.
Now, the mouse over says that 'part time or intermittent' means less than 7 days each week or less than 8 hours each day over a period of 21 days or less - unless you have special circumstances. In other words, sure, as long as it is temporary.In addition, you have to be homebound, only leaving for short, infrequent things for medical care, religious services, and the like.
I'm not even sure most folks know that stuff exists judging by how many people take care of their elderly parents. Perhaps it is much like disability and they turn down a lot of people?
Here it isn't a short term situation. You get a nurse for up to 6 visits a day, even if you need all 6 visits every day for 10 years. In fact, you aren't eligible for a nursing home unless your needs exceed this. It isn't so much if you are homebound, but that you need the medical care (though you might be mostly homebound with that).
Reimbursement for a stay in a nursing home would also be subject to a doctor deeming it necessary (and also whatever rules Medicare has about it), home care is just a lower level of care in that sense.
I wasn't really trying to compare the programs, I just saw the possibility in your comment that were not very aware of it in the US.
Reimbursement for the nursing homes... admittedly, most of what I know about payment for american nursing homes is probably rumor, "friend of a friend lost had to sell the house for the nursing home payment" sort of thing. Didn't pay much attention, then was taught the cost in class here in Norway.
It is hard to take somebody serious who lumps together all countries from Europe. May I ask in which one you live?
If you just take the above elements of your reasoning, you've just described White flight.
Gun violence in the US is a major problem and our gun ownership and sales policies are at the heart of it. I've considered moving my family away from it long before this horrifying outcome.
The murder rate for whites in the US (i.e. the rate at which whites are murdered) is 2.5 per 100,000 much lower than the overall murder rate of 5.2 per 100,000. This is still higher than most of the West, e.g. 70% higher than Canada. But not the "extreme levels" you referred to earlier.
And you didn't mention guns before, I'm assuming you don't really only care about violence that comes out of the barrel of a gun, and you're just adding this now to avoid discussing the link between race and crime.
I don't view a ton of difference between extremist terrorist conscription and, say, gang violence.
I think many of the same triggers are exploited. And you see those same triggers at play in traditionally white "militia" folks as well.
If you move, please reach out. We'll be glad to welcome you!
If that's OK with you, then go for it.
In NYC I can do a normal sit down lunch at $40 multiple times a week, without really batting an eye - whereas that would be painful in Denmark - on the plus side you usually have catered lunch which quality, choice and taste wise is not nearly as good, but significantly cheaper and with it being better for team work within the company.
For health care you should expect longer lines and significant delays in case you have a non-urgent issue; whereas that in NYC is something you can handle easily by setting up an appointment on Zocdoc so that you can see a specialist the next day - with it being covered by your health insurance.
On a NYC tech salary I tend to buy gadgets / items as often as I want, if the cost is below maybe $200, in Denmark that threshold is more like $60.
Vacation policies are generally substantially better in Denmark; and workload also being significantly lower.
Pros and cons
What is it you feel you need to wait for?
Also, in regards to salary: Yes, it's lower overall. But it's still high, especially in the tech sector. I get paid roughly the same as my US counterparts (we have offices in Copenhagen and New York).
That lasted 6 months, and she now has a big group of friends consisting of expats/danes.
Job opportunities are very good, especially if you work within healthcare, engineering or similar fields. There's a shortage in the workforce for highly qualified workers.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151220/05391733140/denma...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/europe/denmark-vote-jewelry-bi...
Suffice to say not exactly a paragon of liberty and freedom for all. But it might work for white techno elites for whom being not in US/UK and writing web apps is all they want.
It's also the same if you get government benefits. If your wealth exceeds 10.000 DKK, you will have to use your own money to get by, until you run out.
I'm a Danish citizen, with the fiancé being a US citizen - and my understanding is that it wouldn't be easy for us to live in Denmark due to us having an unreasonable burden in demonstrating attachment to Denmark vs the US (https://www.information.dk/indland/2016/07/nye-regler-famili...) --- and with the president-elect having talked about pausing legal immigration for 1-2 years it makes for pretty scary times as my employer currently is applying for PERM status for me (meaning things could be paused randomly by the president - and with no where for us to go but maybe Canada/other European countries)
In regards to your visa in the US, I think you should just wait it out. I doubt it'll get paused overnight, since the business impacts would be too great.
Why throw in 'whites' like it's some derogatory adjective? Are bitter uneducated blacks or hispanics preferable? Besides that, people without a college degree are not necessarily stupid or not allowed to have a voice.
That said, any in that line up will be a bit of a culture shock coming from the US.
Source: I'm Dutch and moved to Sweden
Source: Scottish, moved to Finland.
(Biggest pain-points for me: the Finnish language, and the brutal winters.)
I think when I did the math, the taxes weren't really all that much higher than the taxes + health insurance costs in the states. It feels more like I'm paying a tax instead of outright fees for some things. Some I don't notice as much - such as the 25% VAT, mostly because it is included in the listed price.
Cost of living is high here, but Sweden is supposedly cheaper. Enough that there is a bus that goes over the border for Norwegians to shop.
https://www.jobbsafari.se/jobb/it/systemutveckling
Most of the ads are in swedish, but google translate does a decent job of translating.
Don't be afraid to apply in english, majority of IT companies does not mind hiring english-only speakers.
Not sure about the rules on getting a work-visa in Sweden.
This is exactly the sentiment that has brought us to this point. Either you are tolerant, inclusive or you are not. Try respecting the thoughts and options of others instead of leveling insults. Equality demands that people that differ from you still get a voice.
This does not apply only to high-income Americans. In fact, the downsides of a reduced salary are much worse for people with average and low incomes.
It's become pretty obvious since the 2008 recession that people of low incomes, or even average incomes, have few means to control the circumstances of their lives. They are at the mercy of economic and political forces beyond their control. Another recession would victimize them again, and they would be powerless to improve their circumstances.
Americans moving to Canada, whether or not they are high-paid tech workers, will almost certainly take a lower salary in Canada than the one they have in the US, for doing the same job. The safety net in Canada isn't that much better than the one in the US, aside from the obvious exception of free health care. So, a lower salary would be a pretty big sacrifice to make, because it would worsen the problems I mentioned above.
Also with those fleeing communism as refugees or asylum seekers - i'm born to one of those.
I don't doubt that some people will move, but it won't be to the extent of previous migrations. You have a better chance of changing and fixing the USA from the inside.
Want it to be like redneck country? Go to Alberta. Want to be like the West coast? Vancouver. Like New York, try New York lite, though Canada calls it Toronto.
The following things changed for me going from Canada to the US, there are more American Flags.
My 2 cents.
Even in countries where gross salaries are comparable, you would pay a ton more taxes.
Personally is a tradeoff I'm willing to make, as I believe what is sacrificed in financial terms is returned as increased social peace, but of course it's a matter of preference.
- Small internal market
- Less risk-taking atmosphere and attitude
- Lack of money (see point above)
If you're a startup founder and moving its these three points that'll impact you the most. If you're an employee, the significant salary disparity and the number of employment opportunities will be the biggest factor at play.
That all said, I loved staying in Toronto, and I met and worked with exceptionally strong engineers there; it's my plan to move back. YMMV depending on the company you join, and one (sad) issue is that the job pool is thinner - so jumping from one great startup to another is dramatically harder than SF.
My recommendation is get a remote job for a smaller company that will pay you in US dollars. After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers but without having to pay Silicon Valley living costs or immigrate into a country crazy enough to elect Trump. If you can live away from Vancouver and Toronto you can really make that stretch.
Not for long -- America just out brexited the U.K.
Speaking as someone who did that, and is amazed that it doesn't occur to more people. It's not for everyone, probably most people can't just up and move, their spouse likely can't get a job elsewhere that easily, and there is the question of what to do for the kid's education. If you're single though, you're crazy to stay.
I'd break even financially and would have more time to learn the language (though I suppose working in a foreign office would be a great way to learn the language, at least once the basics are obtained).
-Transit (transitapp.com)
-Unsplash (unsplash.com)
-Hopper (hopper.com)
-Breather (breather.com)
-Sonder (sonder.com)
-Busbud (busbud.com)
-AmpMe (ampme.com)
-Fuzzy AI (fuzzy.ai)
-Frank & Oak (frankandoak.com)
You can get a pretty nice 1 BR apartment in Montreal for ~$600 US/mo. Incredible bars, beautiful people, great schools, bike paths, and lots of outdoor rinks to play hockey in the winter :-)
FYI: Montreal startups operate in English!
(No personal experience, but this is what my French-speaking relatives in Quebec say, and the occasional news seem to match it.)
The German tax ROI seems much better to me, but I miss my $575 Montreal rent.
ps: parts of my family moved out of Hong Kong when it became Chinese again. But that was quite a different situation.
Obviously I'm in a bit of a bubble (having done this myself) but a lot of my college friends left the country too.
I think you're talking about business schools. Almost all reputable engineering schools are virtually free, as well as all universities.
"Virtually free" can mean somewhere around 2000 Euros a year. A lot of people get aid (I didn't have to pay for my last year thanks to this). Plus most engineering schools don't really use textbooks, so you don't have much in extra expenses apart from a laptop.
Yes, taxes pay for this, but that was my out-of-pocket for schooling.
You do have to pay for some business schools, but what people say on that: you pay for your diploma.
I have friends who went to some private schools for computer science and it seems like it's a good path for some of them (around 8k euro/year)
Besides, I've moved to Germany, from a more distant culture than French
Besides, most of the differences are non issues
But yes, I'm good at adapting
We'll buy whatever layout new staff want, but we keep spares of these two around.
(British gives the European physical layout with the additional key and double height enter key.)
Having lived in France I'd say switching from the French keyboard to most other western layouts is especially brutal (or making the switch in the other direction). Took me a good while to readjust to the numbers being on shift and the special characters being the default. Very brutal for passwords :D
But I just set it to US-Intl (wherever the place) and be done with it. I don't look at what's drawn on the keyboard
You have more english speakers in Germany, and the lifestyle is similar, but the lifestyle is similar in all of Europe and even in Europe and USA. But that does not make the culture the same.
Would love to know more. I like to think I know a little about French culture (or could make a guess at it) but I've never been to Germany.
Germans have that klischee about being punctual and organized, no? Well, it is true, and it is very different in France. Meetings don't start on time, even in the workplace. But also when you meet up with friends, you don't have to be there on time, and it is seldom expected. It is not as crazy as in Africa or latin america, but if you meet in a bar at 7pm people will arrive 7:15 or 7:30. That was difficult in the beginning. Of course, also happens in Germany, but to a lesser extent.
This translates to other things: I was the first PhD student of my french professor who actually finished his thesis before the deadline. We made a plan, I sticked to it. She fully expected we would run late and was quite surprised. Also, in the international project I was working on, our french colleagues had the tendency to not fully respect the deadlines. That was actually a positive thing, because the deadlines were crazy and instead work was always done when needed, not when the plan saw it fit, leading to a better work distribution.
Food. The coffee is different in France. Meals take longer, also the lunch break does. Entrée, main course, dessert – way more common to have it all. There is a whole restaurant culture in France that is way different than in Germany, with people of the middle class eating in restaurants every week at least once, and with many many more restaurant than in an equally sized german town.
There is also a difference in how people dress. Depends on the place and setting of course, and you can't easily compare Berlin and Paris anyway. But still, it is noticeable also in other cities. There is another standard.
The thing with friends is hard to describe and it also changes anyway depending on age and setting, no matter where you are probably. And I won't go into the topic of women. Something else then: You have in France these really friendly french men who really talk a lot. Very easy to talk to, as they will just start the conversation and help you along, which is quite nice when you meet new colleagues. But in Germany that would mean that someone is really interested in becoming a friend. Here it is just the default for some, it means nothing special.
'I didn't "flee" America. What I fled are tribalistic homo-apes who have reverted back to simply responding to their instincts. Just a bunch of reactionary emotions without rational thought.'
What those two have in common is they fit the definition of the word 'demagogue' 100%, point by point. Along with many, many others (numerous political figures in Europe in the '30s, Huey Long, senator McCarthy, etc).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue
Hitler, however, was far more effective than everyone on that list.
Well, at least so far. But even so, Hitler's charisma and ability to emotionally be a puppet master to enormous masses while spewing bullshit appears to be unparalleled in history.
Based on what we've seen so far, the Berlusconi comparison seems best. Knock on wood.
This seems a bit broad.
Not sure about wages. I feel I'm paid a fair salary.
Hey, be fair. You have to drive 1.5 hours to get to the best ski resort in the world.
As the saying goes - "It rains only once, but for seven months (October through April)."
> oppressive mountains
Actually, said mountains limit traveling northbound (there's a single road that goes to Whistler), there's an ocean to the west, farmlands to the east and the US border with few hour wait crossing times to the south. So you are basically stuck in the city. It is a big city and lots to do, granted, but after a while it gets stale.
> incredible skiing, biking, hiking
... which don't move a needle unless you are a hardcore outdoorsman.
Not to forget the real estate chokeful of Chinese money and priced out of reach. School system that is focused on producing tolerant citizens rather than someone how knows what an integral is, etc.
On the plus side - a mild climate, very good restaurant scene, nice people and nearly free medicine (which is too not without its headaches).
To each his own, basically.
Also, the Chinese real estate situation is the same as here in SV.
It's tough to live in this town on the median local income. Get a very good job before you move here. There are much more affordable Canadian cities with the same social deal and without the Vancouver housing crisis. But if you can make it work, this is a nice place.
It's a suburban area though, which is great if you're into that. If you want an urban car-free experience there's only a very tiny part of downtown, yaletown and maybe olympic village that will accomodate that.
Been there myself. Life ain't easy out there.
Edit - A little bit of context here: I am speaking as someone who was born and raised in a developing country rife with racial and political problems. My point is, a lot of people who are yelling about immigrating due to the election result are overly naive with their outlook. It takes an incredible amount of effort to adjust to a new environment, not to speak of giving up the connections and comfort they have in the US. It's not as easy as just "moving to another country".
On the other hand, life as a lower class non-native person in Canada is far better then that of a lower class non-native person in the US.
Canada doesn't accept immigrants with expensive pre-existing conditions though. Much like insurance companies pre-ACA.
Obviously it's more said than done, but it happens and I admire those who follow through.
Since then, two friends have moved from London to Berlin, two others are planning to move to Frankfurt, two others have job offers in Stockholm or Malmø. (This is three couples.) Another friend has applied for a position in Lund.
Only 3/7 of these people are British, so the other 4 have already made a similar move.
If you hold him to his campaign promises, at least 11 million Americans will leave.
I myself moved from Switzerland to Colombia. Among other reasons because I wanted a break from the Swiss cultural and political climate.
But for me, emigrating isn't a definite thing. At least as long as I don't have children. Maybe I'll stay, maybe go back, maybe move somewhere else after a while.
Also I like being culture shocked – it tends to widen my horizon :)
I liked Canada and it's sad that I have to live away from my family, but I would be a fool to stay otherwise.
Unfortunately, we might see another spike in foreign investment in Canadian housing thanks to this election...
Houses are expensive here but still cheaper than London or SF.
Canada isn't all doom and gloom.
Soon after I moved to the bay area because the companies there were more interesting, but the pay was probably about even compared to seattle.
That is why it would of been foolish to stay.
I mean, when your guy is threatening to disband NATO, tear up NAFTA (and rejects free trade as a whole), reinstate torture as official policy, etc...would you rather live in the U.S. or in one of its allied countries?
I guess it depends on whether you're a minority or not, doesn't it?
Taxes are annoying, but between treaties and the foreign income exclusion or credit, you probably won't be double-taxed.
Furthermore, also unlike every other country in the world, the US will only deduct the paxes you paid in the other country from the taxes it thinks you owe it on income you earn+spend while living abroad. Every other country considers your tax obligations fulfilled.
Most places, particularly those where you'd earn a high salary, have higher tax rates (particularly if taxes cover what would be health insurance in the US), so the credit often completely cancels your US taxes.
In many places with lower taxes, it's fairly difficult to earn $100K to begin with, so you're covered there too.
The two situations which are tricky are 1) Earning a lot in a low-tax location (maybe oil workers?) 2) Having income from a mix of US and non-US sources (renting out your American apartment?) since your US income gets "bumped up" to the tax bracket associated with your worldwide income.
For startups. you get about ~50c back on the dollar from the gov't annually. You don't need to make a single dollar in profit to get that, it is based on the invested capital.
Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.
Will Trump keep it that way?
My original plan was to move and telecommute, but that's kind of fucked because the dollar is crashing.
- Unemployment rate and job openings
- Economic growth
- Disposable income
- Household income
- Low middle class tax rates
- GDP per capita
- Economic productivity
- Wealth creation opportunities
- Access to capital and investment
- Diversity (most competing first world nations are very homogeneous)
- Scale and variety of industry, the US is the #2 manufacturing nation for example
- Freedom of speech and ease of movement
- Tech infrastructure
- Best universities on earth
- By far the highest research & scientific output of any nation
- Leadership positions in: pharma, biotech, genetech, aerospace, software, Internet tech broadly, cloud, ecommerce, mobile, artificial intelligence, virtual reality, space / space tech, defense / military, agriculture, electric vehicles, nuclear and other energy fields, one of the leaders in solar, and numerous other fields
- America's median standard of living is still among the top dozen nations on earth
This is doubly so if you don't associate with the stereotypical American lifestyle of working 50 hours a week, 10 days vacation per year, and sending out work emails while holding your newborn baby.
Listing specific things is pointless – all these ratings are online anyway, but just to name a few:
- fucked up health care system
- gun violence rate higher than in most third world countries
- homicide rate worse than any other developed country, and worse than countries like Niger, Laos, India, or Iran
- those best universities will put you in a $200K+ debt hole that you'll spend a lifetime getting out of, and the mediocre universities are not cheap either (compared to almost free education in many developed countries)
Granted, that only counts for fear of a semi-tyrannical president, not necessarily for economic concerns.
So it'll be a more unified government than you've seen in a long time, which makes Trump able to get a lot of his platform through.
It's a great time to live in America.
https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/_landings/contract/O-TRU-102...
The big ones are term limits for Congress and lower taxes.
On the dooms day clock of climate change, the time is past midnight. This is not good.
https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/budgetary-impac...
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-trai...
It's the same sort of thing as a lot of left wing policitians favour. Incur a lot of debt, and then that's going to cause so much growth that you'll come out smelling of roses.
Other than that, you're right, House and Senate control is far more important. But don't underestimate these god-awful presidential signing statements that have become so popular. Appointed cabinet positions can make quite a difference depending on the domain. There are other ways to side-step the separation of powers.
Come over :)
So a 15-20% salary reduction probably puts you ahead.
There's lots of minefields. I've never done it, just familiar with it.
Trump is well-known for being extremely against NAFTA.
[edit] just Raleigh mind you, The Triangle is much bigger than that.
Looking at a map, I see Sherbrooke, Quebec City, Fredricton, then Moncton, and Halifax. Quebec City is probably the largest at about ~500k people, and has some tech industry. Dalhousie University in Halifax has some decent science programs too. After that, the next biggest tech center is probably London.
[0] http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.cic.g...
I don't intend to move stupidly, and I don't intend to unless I can better my situation--but I wasn't even considering it yesterday, and I am now.
The people that voted in trump represent about 1/5th of the population. How about sticking around and fucking participating rather than expecting a political free ride?
Trump does not take himself seriously, so why should you. The trump presidency is going to be a clusterfuck, gaffes galore, pure comedy but hopefully eventually harmless and the bigger risk is people overreacting.
Seriously nothing can be worse than the sinister and duplicitious behind the scenes status quo represented by Hilary Clinton and her ilk. This is 4 years for the entrenched frauds and clowns in politics and media to reassess their ruling strategies as it appears nearly everyone can now see through their bullshit and crave honesty and sincerity even if its ugly.
As long as you don’t come by boat you should be fine.
There are some cultural differences, but at a professional level it is very similar to the US.
They do seem friendlier though. Much friendlier.
Are you seriously comparing SF living to Waterloo living? There's a reason it's 1/4 the price. It's a running joke between every single undergraduate student with significant experience in SF that we want to get out of Waterloo.
LRT opening up? That's a joke. How exactly is the LRT going to help the startup scene?
I like it here, and I'm happy with what I make, but when you factor in the exchange rate, a typical US developer would take a huge salary haircut working here; probably 40-50%.
You're spot on w.r.t. most living expenses, too. I've got a big apartment in a part of Toronto that I really like for $1200 a month. Buying a house in this city is another story, though. On my grandfather's street, smallish 3 bedroom detached homes are selling for $1.5 million+.
[1] http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/06/28/canada-lift-visa-req...
You show up at the border with your passport, the fee, and few documents from your employer. They do some stuff on the computer and then awkwardly disappear for a few minutes. You pay the cashier and the guard reappears with your completed work permit. Done.
As far as I know, there's also not much paperwork for returning to the US, though you're supposed to inventory all of the stuff you bring back with you.
I'm not sure what's the process of getting a visa though. Jewish people can get citizenship relatively easy (Jewish state yada yada yada).
Disclaimer: I work at Facebook Tel-Aviv
People that fear Trumpist racism are very much the same people that understand Israel as a racist country.
Check out our jobs board: app.vanhack.com/jobboard and shoot me an email with any questions: ilya@vanhack.com
Same happened at Brexit. Businesses suddenly reacting to what had happened rather than being prepared for something they had known was a possibility for months if not years.
And vacations to Mexico just got 10% cheaper.
I liked SF and Boston. Things moved a lot quicker. The cities were more populated, people were more educated (I was near Harvard / MIT / UC Berkeley ) and unassuming.
I went to college near Toronto, and almost all my professors were American. They liked Canada for all the reasons I didn't like it. Things seemed to progress slower than their American counterparts, and people were less wound up. The downside is that the service quality in the private sector is not comparable that of the US.
I currently reside in Vancouver. It's beautiful here, but you get lots of rain during winter seasons. People are friendly. It's expensive if you live near the city, but where isn't?
Pay is definitely not as good if you're an engineer... Maybe 70 cents on the dollar. If you're trying to build a software startup, definitely consider moving your HQ to Canada (or outside of SF!), and keeping a corporate office in SV for fundraising. There's less competition for engineers, and you'll make 30% more progress per dollar invested.
Technology-wise, I'd suggest Waterloo. Silicon Valley hires graduates from U of Waterloo only second to UC Berkeley. Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics chaired by Stephen Hawkings is also there. The city is also home to Institute of Quantum Computing, started by the founder of Blackberry.
D-Wave, one of the major players in quantum computing is based in British Columbia.
In terms of AI, Canada is a bit of a talent drain. Most of the lead researchers and professors have been lured to Oxford or Google or wherever.
Venture Capital presence is limited here. Vancouver has only got a handful of major venture firms. Though, I met a couple of investors from Silicon Valley investors trying to start something up near UBC. I can't say much about Toronto.
Quality of living is pretty good here. I can go out for walks during midnight and not have to worry about getting robbed - something I was never able to do in LA. Many parks.
Overall, you'd like Canada if you're willing to trade slower pace, liberal views, colder weather for population size, and American imperialism.
Every American I've met in Canada really enjoyed being here, just as every Canadian in America I've met really enjoyed being there.
I'm no exception. There's something I love about the narrow Cobblestone streets in Cambridge, the golden hills in SF Bay Area, the weather in LA. And oddly enough, I've found that people I've met in the US are more personable than those in Canada. I suppose that comes with the more unified sense of national identity that is in someways a fascade.
Damn. Whoever thought being obsessed with the election coverage would be useful.