Again: this is a point that can be made to sound interesting with lots of extra words, but all you're saying is that people run applications on operating systems you don't like. They're not going to switch.
No, he's saying that people run applications on fundamentally insecure operating systems.
> They're not going to switch.
That doesn't make them right, nor him wrong.
Only because there's there's nothing to switch to. There's just no solid FOSS phone OS at the moment, and, IMO, fixing that is more important than securing messaging systems.
I generally accept Moxie's / OWS's argument that upstream, patched Android with Google services and spyware/backdoor and all, is in general more secure than running a hodgepodge of FOSS software on a rooted phone - especially for less technical minded users (ie: almost everyone if your target market is everyone).
I don't think it follows that a transparent platform running fully open and user-controlled software, perhaps backed by some form of web-of-trust cacert-like CA system can't ever work - and might not be a good idea to have available as a fallback if it turns out that the anti-democratic paramilitary organization you have to fight is one backed by the NSA.
I'm a little surprised how polarized these discussions tend to get - as if two ideas have to be mutually exclusive.
I think I understand OWS reasoning with locking down their network and forcing phone number IDs - I don't really agree - but I understand the reasoning behind it.
It's really on all of us that care about open federated protocols to set up an alternative network, and OWS have even graciously provided source code and a protocol as a starting point - but it's a shame that rather than some email-like model where all systems could federate in a predictable way, we are forced to have three different networks (a hypothetical open-signal, signal and whatsapp).
I guess there's a lot of people that are still sore about Facebook and Google discarding XMPP, and breaking the unification trend that we saw a glimmer of a few years back. Even without federation, I could have one sane XMPP client, with OTR support, and chat both to my non-technical friends on gtalk and facebook - and have encrypted chats over those same servers, or through the federated XMPP network.
Now I have some people in Facebook's silo, some in Google's Hangouts silo, still quite a few on SMS/regular phone service, and a handful on Signal. That's not really the fault of OWS - I actually have a few non-technical contacts I can reach via Signal thanks to their focus on a simple SMS-replacing app. I just still wish I could cut back on the number of clients and have some sane federation.
But fixing the client when the host is still insecure/unknown is just going to move the target. If messages are secure, governments are just going to move to the OS-layer.
I feel like you might've misstated your intended point, but in any case:
- Most threat models exclude the situation which you're discussing here because risks are generally low and, in the event of such a threat becoming material, the entity is probably screwed regardless of whether that threat is considered due to the costs of mitigation. (Seriously -- how would a company or person mitigate this short of independently auditing the code for the OS? Or building their own? And what happens after you look at the code? Do you then look at the hardware too? How low would you go? How low would your attackers go, for that matter?)
- If you're the target of attackers who would actually try to gain access to your device through compromising the device maker, you've got bigger problems.
The philosophical argument doesn't really work here because there's no practical solution that anyone can (or would, really) adequately fund.
P.s. just to clarify, I'm not tptacek.
OWS doesn't then allow you to use their servers for routing/discovery etc - so you need to run your own servers, and set up a different network that cannot federate with the one users of the Google Play Appstore version of Signal use.
If you do that, and install eg. the F-Droid store, you've now given another actor (the F-Droid store) access to your phone. OWS argues that in general you're less likely to manage to run a safe, patched system this way.
? That's a misunderstanding. You can of course use the official servers with your self-compiled version. (side note: I also don't think your phone needs to be rooted for this)
Clarification: "...operating systems you don't like" implies that claudius is biased and that his point about OS security is made invalid by that.
I think the point is that someone who is choosing an OS that is controlled by a particular company has chosen to trust that company.
Quora question: https://www.quora.com/What-are-concrete-examples-of-ad-homin...