Review: The MacBook Pro is an expensive MacBook Air on the inside | Hacker News Reader

Review: The MacBook Pro is an expensive MacBook Air on the inside

m.arstechnica.com

133 pointsAlexeyBrin64 comments

> The Ugly: Really expensive, even in the context of past MacBook Pros.

I find this conclusion, and the article's discussion of Apple's current laptop lineup, to be the most interesting part of the article.

In comparison to the 2015 13" MacBook pro, you get some minor hardware updates, a bit of increased thinness, some changes to ports, and the honor of paying an extra $200.

It doesn't seem like a very good value, especially when it's the bottom of the lineup distinguished more by what's missing (touch bar, touchID and extra ports) than what it adds to last year's model.

I was hoping that the marketplace would punish them, but if Schiller's comments about the new MacBook Pro getting more orders than any previous pro model are accurate, it looks like I'm in the minority.

The number of fanboys who buy on day one just to get the new shiny is not that interesting. It's how many people weigh up the value for money compared to similar machines on the market that really tell you what's going on.

Maybe people will continue to shell out and all other laptop prices will also go up. Maybe they won't. Time will tell.

It is also noted the most online orders they've received for a pro laptop launch. It seems for previously launches you could buy it in the store, getting the machine faster. With this release, there isn't a reason to buy anywhere but online.

If it was really more pro laptops sold, adding online would be an odd choice of words.

Last year's technology, at tomorrow's prices. A $200 price bump for an old design? no thanks. I suspect the secondary market for good, clean, used 2011-2015 MBPs (and replacement batteries) will be booming for some time unless Apple corrects course.

Maybe Apple is using something like the Big Mac inflation index to determine their costs/pricing.

From January 2013 to July 2016, the price of the Big Mac went from to $4.37 to $5.04.

This works out about the same percentage increase for the $200 price bump.

Yes, but there are multiple reasons why food prices have been going up lately, from high gas prices to increases in ethanol usage reducing corn supply, to a rising amount of meat consumption throughout the world. That's driving food prices up more than usual right now. Apple didn't make this raise for anything except "well we added a touch bar!" Meanwhile they've made a much less powerful machine when people expect more power.

Source for the food prices info: https://www.thebalance.com/why-are-food-prices-rising-causes...

Hasn't this been (historically) how Apple laptop hardware revisions work? First gen of a refresh gets +200$ or so, with the bottom model missing some of the changes (retina, ssd or i5/i7 chips, for example). Next year they'll apply the changes to the old bottom model and drop all prices by $100 or so, and then drop them again the year after that. Maybe I'm misremembering, but this seems to be what they've done before.

Yeah, but we were a bit spoiled for the past 6 years where Apple was actually very competitive on price in the $1k - $1500 range. Apple was no longer behind in CPU / RAM generosity, and when other vendors tried to match them on build quality, they would fall short somewhere usually with a shitty track pad or battery life.

This is a beautiful summation of what was expected. They may have been a -><- tiny bit behind on some aspects, but all in all they made up for it with the trackpad, magsafe, and other goodies.

The extra $200 is because the 2016 base model starts at 256GB disk instead of 128.

If you configure the 2015 model with 256GB the price is the same.

Using apple math. Look at the aftermarket prices of SSD's... reminds me of the 16gb iPhone? [1]

[1] https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-survive-an-iphone-with-on...

Lest you failed to notice, the price of SSD's has been falling, right now you can buy a top of the line 1TB SSD for ~$300, and lower end devices are approaching $200.

So, this bucks the trend of the past 4 decades where the new models had more storage for the same amount of money.

That's certainly the case, I'm just pointing out that price really isn't a factor in buying the 2015 model over the 2016 one unless you specifically want 128GB disk.

Unlike last year, your power cord, mouse, monitor, external hard drive, even an outboard gpu can all use the same physical connector, and it's a non-proprietary, industry standard.

Last year's laptop was slow because the internet is slow and storage is slow. 802.11ac isn't the bottleneck, so they couldn't speed up the internet, but they did double the speed of the storage.

However, I think the statement about the headphone jack was silly. Audio professionals use USB DACs or have them integrated in their studio monitors, but not being able to plug in headphones is annoying to regular users. It would be great if instead he acknowledged that Lightning has become a garbage, proprietary standard, and they made a mistake not switching to USB C or including a headphone jack on the last iPhone.

>your power cord...

Why do I care if my power chord used USB? You know what I care about? Not damaging my machine if I trip over the chord. Magsafe was great, and it's gone.

>...mouse, monitor, external hard drive, even an outboard gpu can all use the same physical connector, and it's a non-proprietary, industry standard.

Yeah, if I replace each and every one of them (or buy more dongles.) Seriously, how many people have USB-C versions of these already?

Also, these devices already use standard connectors, so we're not gaining anything on that front. I'm also not going to thank apple for doing away with HDMI and forcing me to buy a new cable.

Now that it's USB you'll be able to get a third-party charger, or if you're in a bind you can limp along using any old USB-C charger that you happen to find.

Your complaints are exactly the same as when Apple killed off the SCSI port in favor of USB. People were losing their minds that they'd invested so much in these peripherals and now they had to go and buy new ones.

Apple also discontinued their proprietary video display connector and settled on VGA at first, then variations on DVI, Mini-DisplayPort, HDMI, replacing all that with Thunderbolt 3 in the USB-C connector form. It sucks because it's new, but in the end it will be great. Most monitors will serve as USB hubs which means plugging in fewer things.

They've also removed Thunderbolt-specific ports, FireWire ports, and a few other quirky Apple ports in the name of conforming to standards. Just imagine how many ports the laptop would have to have if Apple was loathe to remove any of them.

ZNAPS[1] looks pretty cool, but I haven't gotten something like them for the phone/tablet chargers in the car, office and multiple rooms at hom, because I'd occasionally have to pry out the magnetic piece in order to use more ubiquitous Lightning cables. USB C will be far more ubiquitous than Lightning or either of the two versions of MagSafe, and far, far cheaper. Few people have more than one or two MagSafe chargers because they're pretty expensive, but if you want the convenience of the magnetic connector, adding one of these things to a USB C charger once they come out will still be cheaper than MagSafe.

[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1041610927/znaps-the-9-...

Well for me at least, I waited very patiently for this announcement, expecting to get the new one, as I really need something more current to portably develop iOS with. They made the announcement, and I bought a refurb instead. If they weren't quite so greedy this time around, they might have gotten me to spend a couple hundred more. But no, they had to make the entry level with the Touch Bar a crazy $1800, instead of $1300 or $1400 as everyone was expecting.

It is amazing that a review in Ars recommends—even for a subset of users—getting a refurb last-gen model. But I give them credit for making this honest assessment.

Just yesterday I was thinking that when I upgrade from my current laptop (the recently-discontinued 11" MBA), it will likely be to a used 13" MBP. If money and dongles were no object, I'd take the plunge on a new one. (But cost is a consideration for me, and dongles is a consideration for everyone!)

I'm hoping my 2012 MBP lasts another 6 months so I can pick up one of these machines from Apple’s refurbished store. $300 cheaper the new models look a lot more compelling.

If you're stateside you should check Microcenter. They usually have in stock previous year MBAs or MBPs (new or refurb) - often on huge discounts.

I'll take a look. Thanks!

In a couple years you won't be able to use a cheap, off the shelf battery charger, monitor cable, or even printer cable without some weirdly expensive dongle trying to keep the ports on your 2015 MacBook Pro still useful.

I think it's terrible advice for anyone who wants to use the computer for a long time.

Well, I already have several magsafe charges, monitor adaptors, and a wifi printer, so none of these is much of a concern for me.

I'm more concerned about having to purchase several chargers (we have 5 magsafes in various rooms throughout our house) and adaptors so that we can plug in phones, hard drives, and monitors.

Will I transition eventually? Yes. Does the new MBP make me want to do it now? Not on pricing or features.

I have two types of magsafe chargers, half of the lightning cables in the house don't work because they're clones of a proprietary standard. Monitors are connected with DVI, mini-DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort and VGA and none are older than 2008.

I'm relieved that it's like they're finally putting an end to all of the madness. My 2024 computer might offer a lot more protocols, but it finally seems like the physical form factor will be USB C—all of the physical negotiation will be done inside the computer rather than by me attaching an adapter.

If you can wait until January or February, and live in a larger city, you will most likely be able to find one of the newly released MBPs on Craigslist.

Speaking of people picking up refurb last-gen models, I'm going to post two links here for your consideration.

Before the MBP 2016 announcement: https://web.archive.org/web/20161028012214/http://www.apple....

And today: http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macbo...

Notice any differences?

Get them while they're still in stock. That's all I can say, it's what I just did. I cannot stand the new microwave-keypad feel of the new keyboard, and the lack of useful ports and price hike is just the extra slap in the face for me to wake up. This is probably going to be the last Mac laptop I buy.

Everyone seems to either be hating it or hating the haters so far. But honestly I am not biting much on this.

I have a 2013 MBP and I don't see much better performance with this machine, and a lot of friction with the whole dongle thing. Apple went all the way with their dongle love when I just don't see the utility. I am literally only considering it because my computer is old so much that I fear of a hardware failure. With the price I am not really excited to do it.

2013 Macbook Pro really isn't old at all

It used to be, but laptops have essentially stopped getting faster. Desktops are innovating primarily with power hungry video cards for VR.

2010 to 2013 MacBook Pros changed a ton (Retina, dropped optical drive, got loads faster thanks to more cores, etc etc).

I think this is why I am finding these models so expensive.

They don't really look different to laptops 2-4 years ago. That used to be a huge amount of time performance-wise.

Desktop GPUs have been getting progressively faster, but the difference between a new i7 6700K CPU and a 2011 vintage i7 2600K is about 30%. Unless you're shelling out over $1K for your CPU alone there's not really a lot of compelling reasons to upgrade.

Now if Intel started making more affordable six and eight core mobile and desktop CPUs...

Are you considering any other laptops? I have a 5 year old Air that I am looking to replace soon.

There's not much to gain from a 2013 iteration notebook if you've already got SSD. Hold out for the 2017 refresh cycle and you'll get some pleasant perks.

A four year old notebook isn't shameful any more. Intel's improvements have become mostly incremental in performance and steady in terms of power efficiency. The only thing to gain from a laptop lately is better battery life, not vast improvements in performance.

I think people are stuck in this mindset that they've got to update their hardware every two years. You're not missing out on much, chill out and buy when you need to.

Mostly I believe it from the usual time it takes for the hardware to fail. Also I am currently a contractor and will supposedly be taking on a employee role soon so it's my chance to get a computer at as a write off.

This piece also captures the angst. The openly hostile acts of soldering ram, and glueing batteries is something that kind of made me angry. Ok, I told myself, maybe the device and OS will compensate for the fact that it is not user serviceable anymore.

Nope, for the last 3 to 5 years OSX and now macOS software has been beta (at best) on release day. They finally issued recalls for some older graphics problems the "Pro" models had. All in all they have just iOS-ified everything. Very gimmicky updates... nothing that really got me fired up.

This has all come to a head with the latest release of hardware. I don't need a hands on to know 16gb isn't enough RAM. I don't need a hands on to know that the touchbar isn't going to work for ME. I don't need a hands on to know that dongle hell is coming. I really love the trackpad on the mac (one thing that no windows pc can touch), but it looks like the STUPIDLY large trackpad is going to have issues as well....

I do know that I can't stand the "apple" tax any longer. I am sick of not being able to do "everything" on my computer because there isn't enough power/ram/etc. I should have just run Linux VM's for development while keeping Windows, I don't know... I haven't "gamed" in a long time, because it just sucks on a mac (maybe that is a good thing for productivity?).

So what's the problem? Buy a Windows laptop?

> I don’t see the value you could get from an Air in 2012 or 2013 anywhere on that list.

This sums it up for me. Apple simply doesn't have any product in their Macbook line that I consider to deliver even remotely acceptable value for money right now. It's unfortunate.

I'm pretty sure they expect former air consumers to migrate to the iPad pro instead. Sure, it's less capable, but Apple seems to believe the iPad is good enough for those not creating professional programs, movies or images.

Perhaps they do, but I don't know why anyone would. They are fundamentally different computing experiences and iOS introduces so many limitations when you want to use it as a daily computing device that I'm not sure what demographic it is best for when you are looking at an iPad Pro vs. a MacBook or MacBook Air.

The iPad Pro is NOT a pro-level device. Turns out, that oversized iPhone apps are not that great. Look at the latest numbers of iPad sales[1]. Everyone that wants one already has one. Everybody else give zero-shits about the iPad.

[1]https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/26/iphone-ipad-and-mac-sales-...

Its interresting, apple was slow to catch on with the larger phones market. So I guess they decided that a bigger ipad was the way to go, even though the market seems to be going in the other direction for tablets.

I myself find the 7-8" form factor preferable for reading in bed/watching movies/etc over the larger tablets. Its lighter, yet the buttons are large enough to still be fairly usable. I've sorta stopped questioning every strange thing apple does, but the larger tablets don't really appear to be catching on...

I would like to update my iPad Mini 1 since it seems like it should be so ancient now (it's had 3 iterations since then), but dammit if the thing still doesn't just work fine.

Yeah, it feels a little slow for some things now (especially browsing the internet, can't seem to keep more than one or two tabs in memory), but it's still super solid and gets the job done, and even still works with the vast majority of apps and games.

I might have to soon to be able to iOS dev with the newest XCode, but that's the only reason I have. I've owned that thing for almost 4 years now.

It's probably the most solid piece of hardware I've ever owned.

> The iPad Pro is NOT a pro-level device.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that Apple thinks it is a replacement for the Mac Air line of laptops. I give you The Horse's Mouth (Tim Cook):

In my view the tablet and the PC are different. You can do things with the tablet if you are not encumbered by the legacy of the PC.

We think the iPad is the poster-child of the post-PC world.

I think if you’re looking at a PC, why would you buy a PC anymore? No really, why would you buy one?

Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people.

Excuse me? Unlike the MacBook Air it has a retina display and Thunderbolt 3 ports. Seems like this conclusion was written first, then a narrative was written to fit it. Or the writer of the headline was not the writer of the article, and just made something up.

More broadly (this article and beyond) all the dongle complaining is going to sound pretty backwards in the context of today + 2 years.

Writing about smart watches today will look weird in two years, same with just about any industry... So what? The conclusion has been coming for many years... it has all come to a giant head.

For me and many others, it's about pushing the MBP towards more portability at the cost of power.

Laptop manufacturers traditionally have had two lines: a desktop replacement and an ultraportable one. Prior to the Retina MacBook: it was the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. Thinkpads had the X-series and T-series.

Now, Apple has released a MacBook Pro that's not quite the total desktop replacement while requiring us to carry a bunch of adapters. I've mentioned this in another thread, but had Apple just called this recent release an update on the MacBook, most people would probably have been enthralled. Yay! More USB-C ports, a laptop you could type on your lap, and more processing power!

For all of us criticizing the new release, it's not because we don't care for portability or USB-C, but because Apple has hindered the user experience for existing Pro customers. Dongles and adapters are mental lines item that a professional should not have to be concerned with. We want a laptop that can handle it all and we just want Cook et al. to make the MacBook Pro again.

Mostly I agree, except they're not sacrificing a lot of power compared to competitors, with the exception of not using certain power hungry components (GPU, RAM). Apple is clearly moving, as you have noted, to ALL portable computers prioritizing portability over raw power. This is something I agree with, and something others don't, but it's not a "disappointment" as fact so much as a difference in philosophy.

As a professional GIS user and engineering drawing reviewer I theoretically should have opted for a more powerful laptop to replace my work machine this fall, but instead went with the smallest, lightest machine my company was able to provide that still met my day to day usage needs. I travel a lot and portability was high priority. For me, Apple is on the right side on the portability/power curve.

You're right, it's a difference in philosophy (and was emphasized in today's Job's email post[0]). Everyone brings a different set of needs to a laptop, and for you, it's worked out alright.

However, I do feel they've left a lot of professional users out in the cold as they try to capture more of the consumer market. How this affects their brand and goodwill remains to be seen; especially when people are already paying top dollar.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864727

I have been trying to figure out how will Apple survive this crisis and someone's comment mentioning thinness makes me actually get the whole purpose of this MBP release.

This MBP has two immense features: 1) the introduction of a touch interface; and 2) enough thinness to make the MBP mainstream instead of a high-end pro device.

(They could not pack computing power AND make the MBP thinner).

The next version will be a simple hardware update (cpu, gpu, memory, etc.) but this laptop will now be the defining trend of things to come. More touch, more slim, more mainstream.

The rest of the industry (e.g. professionals) will have to rely on the extension port (usb-c) for everything else.

So stop whining that Apple is abandoning its core customers. Because it is abandoning them. And the future that MBP is taking on is for an entirely different set of customers. (Deja Vu anyone?)

>This MBP has two immense features: 1) the introduction of a touch interface; and 2) enough thinness to make the MBP mainstream instead of a high-end pro device.

is there anyone on earth who actually cares about a few mm of thinness? this angle has always boggled my mind, i've never in my life thought 'boy, this laptop sure is great, but i wish it were thinner'

It's an appealing upgrade product to current Air owners (myself included) that want to keep roughly the same form factor without getting the slower MacBook, so yes, I do care about the slightly smaller dimensions.

I do? I'm a professional user and I used a MBA for years bc I travel a lot. I had a VM, Sketch, Illustrator, and lots of other power hungry tools running. Last year I switched to a MacBook bc I couldn't handle the shitty MBA screen.

It worked, but I'm excited I can now afford, in terms of bad space, a more powerful laptop (with Touch ID, a larger screen, retina, more RAM, faster processor, bigger HD, bigger trackpad, better keyboard, touch bar).

I'm very excited for this release.

Honestly I have always loved 2013 15'' MBP with SSD and as a developer I don't see that changing.

People complain, but eventually they will anyways buy another Macbook Pro, because that's the machine the love. The physical outfit, display, operating system, speed, the way it just wakes up when you open the lid, touchpad and so on. It is easy to find compelling alternatives when you are just looking at the specs, but it is hard to believe those in love with their MacBooks would be as happy with any other brand.

Click bait title? the air doesn't have the retina display, which is an important differentiator.

It does say "on the inside", which at least to me implies things like the processor and RAM and not the resolution of the screen (although I suppose opinions on this could differ)

A bit off-topic, has anyone replace their desktop setup with just a 15inch MBP(not external monitors) for the sake of simplifying things, how was your experience?

I'm seeking a replacement for my early 2011 MBP (retro-fitted with more RAM, an SSD as the primary disk and a 1tb swapped in-place of the DVD drive). I'd like to upgrade for a Retina display and something faster and lighter than 2011 parts, but this refresh left me questioning whether buying this generation will be a mistake given all the blowback. Seems they may rectify some of this in 2017. So I can't wait - but buying a 2015 model seems like it may be the better value to avoid dongle hell and swapping out multiple power bricks for the new connector.

Not 1 samsung part in ifixit article.

The real question is, does it slice my cheese as well as the Air does? I like it thin.

I first read the title as "The $1,499,2016 MacBook Pro" and thought -- wow, things certainly have escalated in the world of Apple's premium pricing strategy.

Yeah, I read the same and I was expecting a story about some Arab sheikh ordering gold-plated, diamond-encrusted MacBook Pro :)

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