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Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better than decades of externally enforced austerity crippling a country's spirit as reflected in everything I read these days about Greece.

Looking at the democratically elected politicians/governments in Greece in the last decades I don't know where a totally new political leadership [edit: which would be interested and capable of 'rebuilding the country'] should come from. It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now.

Bringing SYRIZA to power was a sort of revolution. For 40 years the Greek political was dominated by 2 parties and before that there was a series of dictatorships, wars, etc. It was another era.

We also held a referendum but the gov capitulated... From there on, I'm not sure who's going to the ballots and why it matters. I mean, for all important matters such as this tax for example, decisions are made at Troika level (EU/ECB/IMF), our gov is just the executive.

>It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now.

That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity.

In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened with economic catastrophe (shutting payment systems in the entire country, indefinitely).

Last year they fired a kind of warning shot. Greek banks had to shut down for six days, cash machines only let you remove a small amount each day, capital controls were imposed. That could have been continued indefinitely.

Eventually Syriza wilted. Their mistake was assuming in the negotiations that the Troika's primary concern was getting their debts repaid. It wasn't. They just wanted greece to knuckle under and do as it was told.

The problem isn't than an elected government couldn't extricate the country from the Euro and return the country to growth, it's that kind of project would take 9 months minimum and during that entire time the country is vulnerable to the ECB flipping the switch on their economy and "turning off" Greek savings and "turning off" international trade and effecting instant 3rd world status (and not even 'good' third world status).

In effect, Greece has been converted into a puppet state that rubber stamps European Commission and ECB legislation. They issue diktats to Greece who rubber stamps them, and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more.

That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity.

The Greek electorate consistently voted for PASOK or ND, before the whole thing blew up. And only after that, when no political party could promise any unsustainable presents anymore, did a shift in the political spectrum take place.

(Anecdotally: I have a lot of Greek friends, and although I/they don't agree on a lot of things about the current situation in Greece, there's one thing they agree on: that the root of the problem was the rotten political system in Greece, and that the people (meaning in that case: the generation of their parents) consistently voted for PASOK/ND besides knowing how rotten that system was.)

(As a note: I am not arguing about whether Greece is a puppet state, the situation now is only the fault of (the) EU/EC/Germany/[place devil here], or if austerity is the way out or the real problem. I leave that to people who know more about it or at least think they do.)

>shutting off all forms of payment in the entire country indefinitely

Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. That Greece has made itself completely dependent on emergency liquidity from the ECB is the country's own silly fault. Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect.

That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense. The odds are high that the debt will never be paid back and that Greece will never have a developed-country government. There have been some promising developments recently, but I'm sure we can all agree that Greece should never have been admitted to the Eurozone and maybe not even the EU.

>Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit.

Technically, they were threatening to shut off access to target2.

>Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes

Ioannis Papandoniou is likely happy that you're unwilling to let him take too much of the blame. I guess he's suffered enough already right?

Goldman Sachs too (couldn't have happened without them).

>That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense.

It seems to be functioning as intended. Desperation in Greece is driving emigration to Northern Europe which is keeping a lid on wage inflation there and privatization of state assets in underway, which affords profitable opportunities for the right sort of person: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/29/greek-privatization-program-o...

As a Greek I'm aghast by fellow know-it-all Greeks who bought in in this we deserver what we're going through. And it's not just random commentators on HN, it is an entire political class.

> Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect.

G.Papandreou who campaigned with the MOTO "there are enough money for everyone", went around Europe calling Greeks crooked by default. As if every Greek is a crooked and tax-evading[1] citizen. Then came along Pagkalos of course, but the same MOTO is rhetoric is re-played time and again by politicians, just to name a few: A. Georgiadis at "Enikos", A. Loverdos before him, E. Venizelos and many others have replayed this recurring theme.

I don't believe that there is another country's population, who has received so much systemic brainwash into believing that it is it's own fault.

You want to tell me that when the Minister of Finance tells me that our banks are safe (2008), you would expect from the 60-year old public worker to understand that he is lying and believe otherwise? I don't.

So again to answer your question:

> Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect.

Fuck no! It's easy to be pissed with the prior generation but it is a simplistic and stupid approach.

> Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit.

I won't enter into details because I'm bored. I've have written thousands of word regarding Greece, the EU and ECB here on HN and honestly I'm tired. The ECB was created as an apolitical instrument and it's been since then used time and again (Ireland, Greece, Portugal) as a political tool by French and German politician to save their bankrupt banks.

Do you have any idea what is really happenning here[2] ? It's not about Greece, so hatred should not cloud your judgement. If you don't know what is happening in this instance, please gets your fact STRAIGHT please.

ADDENDUM: The only politician who got it right about the ECB was M. Thatcher in her last speech in the house of commons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 - it's outstanding how a right-wing, libertarian politician understood, what French, Greek, Italian, etc. Socialists failed to see...

[1] The problematic relationship between Greek citizens and the Greek goes back to 1821 and it's almost exclusively the state's fault. There are cultural and historical reasons why this is, however, the state still today sees the average as tax-evader a priori.

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU

> I don't believe that there is another country's population, who has received so much systemic brainwash into believing that it is it's own fault.

The German people have had a significant amount of education about their culpability in the events of the second World War.

Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back? That's what it boils down to.

Why is that that everybody else starting from EC and ECB and ending with corrupt polititians (who, it would seem, have magically appeared from amongst non-greek) is to blame but I'm yet to see any citizen taking responsibility. "Yes, it felt good voting for populists and enjoying massive social benefits from the state and not really having to pay taxes but now I have a hangover". That's democracy for you. Your right to vote comes with a responsibility for the consequences.

>Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back?

They're not trying to get their money back. They're simply taking the reins of power and threatening economic catastrophe if they're disobeyed.

It ought to be obvious to anybody with a functioning brain that Greece is not paying down its debts and that the European Commissions directives are clearly not about making Greece more able to do so.

The question you have to ask yourself then is, what are they asking of Greece? Because it's definitely not when are they going to pay us back?

>That's democracy for you.

It's democracy when you inadvertently voted for somebody who handed the reins of power over to a foreign country. That's the transition of democracy to dictatorship.

>Your right to vote comes with a responsibility for the consequences.

Which country do you exercise your vote in?

Well, that's how it goes when you take money from someone in order to keep from disaster. They get a say in how things go thereafter.

You write this as if some Greek politicians just woke up one morning and decided to hand over sovereignty to foreigners. That's not how it happened. Greece was forced into it, because Greece had to have foreign money in order to survive. It's been known for 3000 years what the consequences of that situation are - the borrower becomes the lender's slave (Proverbs 22:7).

So the "that's democracy for you" part was when they voted for people whose bad decisions put Greece in that situation.

> It's been known for 3000 years what the consequences of that situation are - the borrower becomes the lender's slave (Proverbs 22:7)

What Proverbs failed to mention is that if the debt is big enough with respect to the lender, it's the other way around.

> That's democracy for you. Your right to vote comes with a responsibility for the consequences.

True. But as a US citizen, that's also very frightening at the moment...

> ... and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more.

No, and it never was (though they may have pretended that it was at one time). It is, and was, about keeping Greece from economically destroying all of Europe.

But since they're providing the money that keeps Greece out of the abyss, they get to call the tune, no matter whether it's about getting their money back or not...

> Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership

They tried that. Turns out politicians aren't actually very trustworthy...

Turns out when people have to actually govern the thing they're pragmatists. That's what happened to Syriza. They're not "untrustworthy", they're just doing the best with the hand they inherited considering what EU politics are right now.

It's always nice to say you'll demand x, y and z from a third party during elections. But if you have no leverage, and the other party says no, there's little one can do.

> If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k?

I'm not a mathematician, but I think that would make it a 50k or 70k house.

Well put. If the house, 'valued' by the government at 300k, is actually a '90k' house that will in fact sell for 50k, perhaps it's time to get real, save time and call it a EUR 50k property from the start. Everything sells for the right price.

As for the issue of finding a buyer, I am hearing rumours that many Greeks have built up sizeable assets, from not paying very much tax in the last few decades. Many areas in Greece are also popular with European buyers.

Yeah, and then the government will still tax the owner for the full self-assessed amount. Even if the full sale doesn't pay for the tax, and then prosecute you for the unpaid tax.

This already happens in many places with property inheritance tax in the EU. All across Southern EU the governments are valuing assets as in the peak of the bubble because it suits them.

>Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch.

That was actually the best of Greece's bad choices, but they were strongarmed by the IMF and the ECB into not defaulting and pulling a brick out of the financial pyramid scheme upon which western society is based.

Ok, a revolution. But, praytell, who would finance that new fresh government? There's little capital in the country, people don't evidently like the idea to start paying taxes all of a sudden and you just screwed over a large group of investors. That money is going to be way more expensive than the average market yield. That means your economic growth will likely not cover the interest payments. Which means you'd take on new loans to pay back your old ones with interest. And we'll be having the exact same conversation in 25 years or so. Yeah, your generation is going to so okish. But the next one will do even worse than you after a fresh round of damage on Greece reputation on financial markets.

No financing is required unless you want to run a budget deficit. Greece is one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. They could use that sector as the cornerstone to rebuild. They would be poor (to start) but they would also be free. I think this is their destiny eventually but I don't think the pain is bad enough yet.

I think the answer to your first question is "if you put it up at public auction tomorrow, that would be totally illegal."

There are huge legal barriers to property sales, including requirements for energy audits and certification that the construction is wholly legal - which is probably isn't. Just like in the US, a great many safe and livable Greek properties violate zoning laws. Real assets are salable, but in this case the government has crippled the market's ability to clear.

All of which just reinforces your last point; the existing legal structure pretty much guarantees perpetual economic crisis.

Zoning laws in the US don't govern anything other than the initial certificate of occupancy in most US states. They are irrelevant for subsequent sales.

Yes, that was my point but I think I was unclear.

Like the US, Greece has many properties which would be illegal to build from scratch under existing zoning laws. Unlike the US, Greece has pushed a law requiring that all properties be certified as "having no illegal constructions" prior to sale.

I'm trying to imagine the crisis you would get if you enforced zoning laws against secondary sales in the US. At the very least, all of Boston would be uninhabitable.

In order to sell (in Italy) the building must have the same plan (roofs, doors, windows, walls, ...) that was declared when it was built first. You can pay a fine if there are differences, but only if the actual plan obeys the zoning laws now and would have obeyed them at the time the certificate of occupancy was last released.

> Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership

A large part of our electorate thinks like that, and thus came Syriza (Syriza may be a household name, but not everyone knows that it stands for "Coalition of radical-left parties"). Yet when push comes to shove syriza turned instantly back into austerity. The electorate acted like an angry teenager. Magic bullets don't exist.