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For me the issue is with ports. I have exactly zero devices that I can plug into the new fancy USB ports. None of my monitors will connect. I know, they are better, yadda yadda, but I am tired of being held hostage until the "industry" understands how the new ports are better.

Right now I use a MacBook Pro to do my work ("pro", remember?). I need a faster machine, so I will have to upgrade. And I will have to deal with all the dongles, carrying them, remembering about them, losing them, etc. I expect I will eventually make an idiot of myself in front of a client, once they hand me a flash drive with their data and I'll have to admit red-faced that I forgot the dongle thingy.

MacBook Pro used to have the "pro" philosophy: stick every port in there, so that the only thing you have to carry is your macbook and you're ready for everything. Then it started: ethernet disappeared, DVI went away, and successively all ports went away until now we are stuck with 4 ports of the same kind, that are useless (but hey, they show great promise!).

I don't want a thinner machine. I don't need a lighter machine. I need a machine so that I can do my work. Pro, remember?

Price is largely not an issue if you actually use it for work, so I have no complaints there.

For me, ports are not an issue. I am rarely using any plug-in devices when away from a desk, and there are numerous USB-C hubs that provide charging, USB 3.0 A-type sockets, SD card readers, ethernet ports, HDMI and DVI connectors, yadda yadda.

You do not need to buy a dozen Apple dongles, just one USB-C dock/hub/whatever, with the ports that you regularly use. Have one on your desk with monitor, drives, keyboard, mouse, network all connected so you only plug in one cable.

When you go on the road you might want a dock with HDMI so you can plug in to various displays. But you won't need a dozen dongles. Just a hub.

It is just a slightly different way of working rather than plugging all the cables into the laptop and having a huge clumsy mess.

>For me the issue is with ports. I have exactly zero devices that I can plug into the new fancy USB ports. None of my monitors will connect. I know, they are better, yadda yadda, but I am tired of being held hostage until the "industry" understands how the new ports are better.

Then Apple is not the company for you. They have always been first to obsolete things. Remember the hoopla when they canned the DVD drive? Firewire? Literally every other port that isnt USBC

They also dropped the floppy drive and went all-USB with the iMac, abandoning all their previous Mac peripherals which used ADB.

So this seems to be the problem. You're definition of Pro includes "all the ports". The author's definition of Pro includes "avoid HDMI, SD slot, Display Port". It can't both have and not have all the ports.

The author's definition of Pro also includes 16GB RAM, but most posts I've seen complain about not being able to order 32GB RAM. It seems that Apple can't win no matter what they do.

Well, given how many millions of devices they sell, maybe they can allow a couple more options. We don't all need the exact same device.

(tbh, avoiding sd and hdmi doesn't make sense to me. What do you have to lose?)

The RAM issue is a different one. Someone who wants 16GB RAM isn't likely to complain if 32GB is an option.

In sum, you want to sacrifice choice with convenience.

USB-C works with all the monitor you have and also with all the monitors you'll have.

You can use any port on the laptop and crucially charge the laptop and connect to a display with the same cable, and can be even used to connect to other peripherals using the same cable.

Your argument is that you don't want to spend $10 in adapters, you'll end up spending more in the future and be limited in terms of compatibility with newer hardware.

"Stick every Port in it" is ridiculous also.

What laptop does have Ethernet, infiniband, USB-A/B/C, thunderbolt 2.0, miniDisplayPort, MiniUSB, MicroUSB, RS232, Centronics, PS/2, VGA, EGA, PCMCIA, SCSI, eSATA, S-video, etc?

> What laptop does have Ethernet, infiniband, USB-A/B/C, thunderbolt 2.0, miniDisplayPort, MiniUSB, MicroUSB, RS232, Centronics, PS/2, VGA, EGA, PCMCIA, SCSI, eSATA, S-video, etc?

Yes, "every" port is ridiculous. In particular, I think most people would happily do away with anything that hasn't been in wide use in new hardware over the last decade.

I like machines with a port for wired network, a port or two for wired video, an SD slot, and 3-4 USB ports in a mix of USB-A and USB-C. For a Mac, I'd argue that some Thunderbolt ports would make good sense, too. I'd rather have my laptop be a self-contained system than have my bag filled with the half-dozen converter dongles that I'd need to provide the connectivity that I use with my current machine.

Thunderbolt 3 is aimed to replace all currently existing ports, even a charging port, and that's great.

When my current machine dies, hopefully >5 years from now, I'll have the opportunity to evaluate new machines based on my current needs and where the market's at then. The company that gets my money will be the one that matches closest to what I want, not necessarily what's being marketed as the Next Big Thing at that time. Between now and then, Thunderbolt will either become dominant, or fall by the wayside like Firewire did.

> or fall by the wayside like Firewire did.

There are reasons for this no happening. TB3 is compatible with USB Type-C port format, it has a very high bandwidth and it's supported by Intel.

Meh. It'll happen, or it won't. The market's volatile and fickle.

It doesn't mean will it happen or not, Thunderbolt 3 is great thing for now.

It's a neat, but very niche, piece of technology. It's not dominant, in any sense of the word. It might be in the future, but it's not a sure thing. The fact that you can find hardware that supports it isn't interesting to me. It'll be interesting when I can be just as sure that a machine will have a TB3 port as I can currently be that it'll have a USB-A port.

One of the things I actually dislike about it: a port can be USB-C without being TB3. That's going to be fun with the plain USB-C port in my laptop.

It's not a niche anymore, Intel 7th gen has native Thunderbolt 3, so no extra chips needed, that should expand its popularity. Actually any modern laptop already comes with a TB3 ports (see Dell/HP/Apple stuff).

> a port can be USB-C without being TB3

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12824538

It doesn't need to be dominant as in "every PC has it" and everyone needs it. Most people, all they need is an iPad.

It is dominant in the market where USB falls short, that's what matters.

Everyone doesn't "need" it. It'll just be nice. As you point out, most people don't "need" anything more than a tablet, and those aren't exactly known for their high levels of connectivity.

> It is dominant in the market where USB falls short, that's what matters.

It isn't dominant in the market yet, and that's my entire point. When it is: cool. I don't have much argument against it (aside from the dongle-hell I'll be living in). But right now, I don't own a device with any version of Thunderbolt, even with several new laptops around.

You like that, and people like other things.

I hate on board ethernet, it's stupid, almost all of them have only one NIC and only 1Gbps, which is laughable in this day, much more in the 4 or 5 years a laptop usually lasts.

So... welcome TB 3.0 (which can be used for 40Gbps daisy chain networking), and 10GbE adapters someday or another.

> almost all of them have only one NIC

Why would you need more than one NIC on a laptop?

Ethernet is ubiquitous in corporate. I'm yet to see an office with Thunderbird ports.

"Thunderbird"...

Haha I didn't even realize I did that. :-)

I'll welcome TB 3.0 ports, in addition to what I have. Expanded functionality is always nice.

No, my argument was not about spending money. I specifically noted that I don't much care about the pricing.

My point was that adapters are something that I have to think about, carry separately, and sometimes forget or lose.

I don't know why people keep repeating "USB-C works with X" (replace X with whatever). It might work if I get all the dongles. For the moment, as I said, out of ~40 devices around me there are exactly ZERO that I can plug into the new machine.

Also, let's not get into extremes here: I would not complain if they at least kept at least one or two USB 3 ports.

"$10 in adapters"?

This is Apple we're talking about. The only thing they've ever sold at a $10 price point is the MagSafe 1 to MagSafe 2 adapter. And, frankly, even that was overpriced.

They're selling the 3.5mm-lightning adapter for $9: http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35-...

Good thing is that you don't have to buy from Apple with UsB-C.

Meanwhile, all those craptastic laptops that are "better than the MacBook Pro", you'll have to buy a specific adapter from the OEM.

If you want to try to run, e.g., graphics and power between your $2000+ MBP and your $700+ 4k monitor (like the LG panel) on a $10 cable ... uh, have fun with that. I hope it works out for you.

what's your problem? it works, end of line.

Yes, it _should_ work, but there has been lots of stories already about fried computers because of faulty cables

This kind of apologist attitude, just like everyone throwing money at them when they unilaterally took away the headphone jack, tells Apple they can disappoint and dictate to their customers as much as they want, and will still make money hand over fist for it.

Is that really what you want?

> tells Apple they can disappoint and dictate to their customers

More correctly, tells Apple that they can disappoint and dictate to some of their customers.

Whether it's a problem for Apple is, of course, dependent on whether it disappoints enough customers sufficiently.

My sense is that they will continue to appeal to a large number of people who want highly attractive, easy to use, reasonably capable, reasonably portable kit. They will also continue to attract those who wish to service said people.

What they'll fail to do is continue to service the more niche clientele who traditionally swore by Apple e.g. non-Apple ecosystem devs and heavy duty media makers.

I'm not hugely happy about this trend as I'm sort of in one of these niches. I'd quite like to have access to a big, expandable chunk of kit that has Apple's traditional build quality.

But I'm still likely to upgrade to a 7 when my contract renews as I have a pair of Bluetooth headphones. I mean, I use my phone for appy things and music when I'm travelling. In that regard I'm really not niche at all.

I use my phone as my primary music player, too — both at home and when traveling. I have a nice (Mass Fidelity Core) Bluetooth speaker for home, but for travel, I dropped a couple bills on a nice pair of wired noise-isolating earbuds (B&W C5 S2), and having that purchase unilaterally obviated remains a sore spot for me.

Yes, I could drop another $40 to get that functionality back, but then I sacrifice simultaneous charging. It's hard not to see this as being pushed around by a bully who's after your lunch money (for arbitrarily large values of "lunch money") sometimes.

I'll stick with a 6S for as long as I can, and hopefully this situation will be resolved somehow before then. Maybe they'll release another SE-like device that has a physical headphone jack again, but I'm not holding my breath.

It seems so. Apple gets away with stuff other companies would never be able to.

Why not introducing USB-C on the iPhone 7 and makes it easy for the new MBP crowd? It seems the 2 teams didn't talk. Samsung could pull off the same stunt.

All I see is people attacking the MBP to defend Microsoft outdated (28nm GPU, old ports) garbage

Then you aren't looking very hard. Yes, maybe that's a (small) part of it (though your "28nm gpu" hyperbole really does detract from your point), but it's nowhere near all of it.

It is, don't try to hide it. Apple haters.

Dude, I'm typing this on my fifth Apple computer, am currently on my ... sixth, I think, iPhone, and second iPad. Don't make assumptions.

Criticism isn't hate. Blind loyalty isn't love.

Same old story, your actions speak louder.

What actions? Voicing my displeasure at the actions of a company to which I've given as much money as I have?

Please, be specific.

What I want is a company willing to piss off a few users by going with the times.

Ever since my first computer 35 years ago, I've dreamed of the day when we could get rid of all these individual ports and finally have the One True Connector.

Yeah, the transition period sucks. Yeah, you'll have to buy $25 dongles. So what? There's a usb-c dongle that has HDMI, SD card reader, and 4 usb 3 type A ports on it for $30. Done. Problem solved. Stop bitching.

I still have old style keyboard to ps/2 adapters, ps/2 to usb adapters, composite to VGA adapters, VGA to DVI adapters, DVI to HDMI adapters, HDMI to thunderbolt adapters, serial and parallel to USB adapters, IDE to SATA adapters, SATA to USB adapters... And now I'm glad to see that era is finally at an end.

And in a few years when there are no more peripherals using outdated ports, nobody will even remember this time, or your griping.

I'm not bitching about USB-C. I'm actually kinda with you on that one, so please try not to put words in my mouth.

But the headphone jack? No, that one is Apple pushing people around. It's not to make the phone "thinner" because that fugly lens protrusion is hideous, and the 7 is exactly as thick as the 6S, anyway. It's not to make the phone "waterproof"; $.00000002/phone worth of silicone around the jack could have done that. As Schiller himself said, it "comes down to one word — courage."

It's purely about seeing if they can dictate to their customers, and people are lining up, all, "Shut up and take my money!"

EDIT: vulgarity.

There have been usb audio adapters on the market for over a decade now. They're available dirt cheap on Amazon, with the newer ones plugging into usb-c. And soon, we'll start seeing headphones that plug directly into the usb port.

Once again, problem solved.

You're talking about the MBP, which still has a 3.5mm audio jack. I'm talking about the iPhone 7, and pretty unambiguously have been all along (if, granted, by no other measure than the sheer fact that the computer still has the port in question).

Can we please at least have the same conversation? Or are you more interested in down-shouting anyone who has this objection with "quit your bitching" and "problem solved"?

I'm talking about ALL electronic devices. Phones, tablets, computers, smoke detectors, you name it.

One connector. Not one connector except for this one I particularly like.

And that's why I say I like a company with the balls to bring in the future, even if it pisses off the minority that clings tenaciously to its old tech.

Headphones are analog devices. Analog devices need an analog input.

Most of the best headphone companies are not experts in digital-analog conversion. Nor should they need to be, because having a separate usb audio interface built into every set of headphones is a stupid idea.

It's fine if all you want to use is the absolute crap Apple earbuds, but for people like me who have spent a lot of money on nice headphones, it's ridiculous. If you want to use quality headphones or IEMs, they don't come with USB connectors, and I pray they never need to because that's a stupid idea.

I don't care either way because I hate Apple's business practices and would never purchase their products, but I think Apple will have to backflip on their "courage" on this one.

Even people drinking the Apple kool-aid seem to be angry about this headscratcher. Maybe the base of people who care about what headphones they use won't be large enough to change their "courageous" minds though. Apple doesn't care about professionals and they don't care about audiophiles. I think especially antagonizing the professional market will hurt them in the medium term.

You don't think USB-C will too, one day be obsolete? Because trust me, it's going to be, and we'll all be having this argument x years down the line again. Manufacturers are going to want to make everyone buy new hardware to use new ports.

Oh, this is an "ideological purity" argument, not a practical one.

Nevermind. Sorry for the noise.

It's very practical: Until usb-c headsets become more mainstream, use a dongle.

I can only speak to my situation, but as the macs took longer and longer to update, I came to the realization that I might need to jump ship. And as the upgrade wasn't entirely reassuring, it seems like it might be better to bite the bullet and switch to linux full time—which, incidentally, I'm also pretty excited about and want to do.

The anger/frustration about the new models is about accepting that my time with the mac might be over (a ride which I began back in the OS 8 days). However, seeing how disappointed I've been has only strengthened my resolve to switch as I don't feel I should become that emotionally attached to a company or product (I went through the OS holy wars as a middle schooler, so I can forgive it as a folly of my youth).

> The author mentions in another post why he is done with Apple after his 2013 13" MBP and states he has no use for the Touch Bar. Thats fine, just get the Pro without the bar and with physical function keys.

That model has slower RAM and I'd guess, based on that, an older generation CPU. Lower clock, too. May as well buy a '15 refurb.

Wrong. Get your facts right before criticizing.

Are we seeing different Apple store pages or something? Different (lower-numbered) iris graphics, slower ram, et c. What are you seeing?

[EDIT] discovered via Wikipedia that it is the same processor generation, just a weaker version. Also, USB-C ports cut down from 4 to 2. The non-touchbar Macbook seems to be designed to make people not buy it. And it's still more expensive than the previous entry level.

As I said, get your facts straight, good.

It was a fact that I guessed. On one part. Which I called out as a guess. And the rest was correct.

> The author mentions in another post why he is done with Apple after his 2013 13" MBP and states he has no use for the Touch Bar. That's fine, just get the Pro without the bar and with physical function keys.

The one with physical function keys is less powerful.

> I don't get the amount of grudge towards Apple for the new MBPs

MBP would be a fine laptop for a twice less cost. There are cheaper decent alternatives.

Except those alternatives are usually crap and more expensive

That's not true, unless you are talking about Asus/Lenovo products, see larger picture.

Which alternative has a 3 gigabyte per second SSD?

And four USB-C 3.1 ports with TB 3.0?

And a TouchBar?

And really last 10 hours on battery (Microsoft advertised 12 for the SurfaceBook and it only lasted 6 on the same test the MBP lasted 10)

Those things is not a deal breaker, it doesn't make sense to pay double price in comparison with similar laptops just to get above things, especially TouchBar which costs about $500 and will make you fill uncomfortable with laptop at least for a first time (but I guess constantly).

Yes they are, along with real life battery usage, trackpad, keyboard, size, screen, etc.

I dont know where you got the $500 touchbar, and I don't want to know.

Keep rest mate, I'm glad you made your choice.

> TouchBar which costs about $500

Still waiting...

You will have to wait a long time since

> I dont know where you got the $500 touchbar, and I don't want to know.

A small hint, just compare prices for touchbar based laptops and those with usual fn keys (13 inch model is optionally shipped with usual fn keys, not the 15 inch though).

Comparing the 13" with and without the TouchBar from https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/, the price difference between the $1499 model and the $1999 model covers: TouchBar; faster CPU; an extra 256GB of SSD; slightly better GPU; two more USB-C/TB3 ports; an extra microphone.

This is what I meant, TouchBar + a pack of the minor improvements which should not cost +$500. Also take into the account that seems there is no option to get top hardware, but with an usual fn keys.

It's better to get HP x360 for $1300 with i7-7500U / 512 SSD / 16GB Ram (which in addition has a touch screen and it's convertible) than a slightly worse Macbook for $2000.

To me the emoji bar indicates a faltering vision. "Hey developers, we know what a pain typing emoji is for you, we're listening and check out our new touch bar!!" Is Apple really that far off course in understanding developers as a user base?

I get what you're saying about the over-hype and I'm not about to dump my MBP. I don't think anyone is going to produce as high of a quality product anytime soon, but it does leave me curious what else is out there.

> It may be wise to first try the switch on your current Mac, inside a Virtual Machine …

This is exactly what I'm doing. I run Spacemacs in a Ubuntu VM running on Parallels. I'm not too sure if I would be willing to move away from the OS X apps ecosystem though (I use 1Password, Day One, OmniFocus, iBooks, Notes, Photos etc and they all sync perfectly with the iPhone).

"build quality" is the dumbest pseudojustification I've heard.

There are a lot of well-built machines out there once you leave the bargain bin--Lenovo for example.

Let us just acknowledge it for what it is, posturing.

I own a Lenovo Thinkpad 550 and the build quality is fine but nowhere near Apple MBP. Bought it because it runs Linux w/o hassles, has an Ethernet port and it costs like less than half the price of the MBP. The screen is also crap compared to Apple MBP.

Apple MBP is nice, but lacks Ethernet, a headphone jack, function keys and a SD card reader, all deal breakers to me. And no, dongles don't qualify.