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Comment by tlow | Hacker News Reader

Apple laptop hardware seems to be best in class in terms of performance, support and longevity.

I have some complaints about the way that macOS (or OSX) has progressed. My computer feels more like a Windows 8 desktop running a tablet operating system than ever before. Core usability features that I love have morphed and changed (exposé, spaces). I have more but that's not the point. The point is, despite my personal feelings that macOS continues to decline in quality, I haven't found any hardware that is in any way comparable.

I use a 13" Macbook Air base model and I've used the Dell XPS 13 clone. The Dell has a basically unusable trackpad while the air has the best trackpad on the market. Little things like this make a big difference. Longevity is another big one.

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> despite my personal feelings that macOS continues to decline in quality

Not disagreeing with about the changes to exposé etc., but I find it interesting how often this 'decline' is talked about. I read somebody saying that Snow Leopard was the last solid release the other day...and I'm wondering, do some people have selective memory here? Are they remembering the same OS I remember?

I've been using OS X since 10.3 Panther, and it's always been a 'work in progress' and rough around the edges. It's currently the best it's ever been in terms of security, for sure. There are some superficial areas that I don't like much (Mission Control, Launchpad), but they can be ignored. The OS itself is as solid as it's ever been...which is to say it does still have issues (the discoveryd debacle being a notable example), but it's also had a lot of improvements to its fundamentals too (Core Storage, APFS to pick two big examples).

I also think it hasn't helped that the change to high-DPI screens certainly made the whole OS feel slower, and I think we've haven't quite recovered from that yet.

My personal complaints with OSX are all UI related. I give up too much of my screen and time to animations and buttons that I don't want. The underlying OS is quite good. Much more stable than me endlessly fiddling with Linux. That said, seeing as I can't customize the UI or workflow to what I consider to be a reasonable level, I'll stick with a custom WM on Linux.

I agree with the sentiment of this comment. I think you're articulating what I perceive as feature decline particularly in the GUI interface. Advanced features seem to be disappearing and unless I'm using terminal, I feel like my machine is increasingly operating with settings and parameters I can't access, customize or eliminate (iOS analogy: non-deletable apps, obscure OSX example cmd-ctr-option-8 used to invert screen colors, this is now default off and only if you know its a feature you can enable can you use it). Huge UI bugs in OSX not previously present are update alerts that cannot be eliminated and will overlay full screen presentations and videos until closed, there's also no way to turn this off, same is true for time machine backup notices).

After all my school years working and developing on macs, some professional years on windows, I'm on linux for 5+ years. 6 months ago I bought a new slick ~2015 mac book pro to be able to develop some iphone apps. So coming from the other side (wild world of linux), I was disappointed by the last 3 versions of OS/X, and finally upgraded to Sierra yesterday.

Endless little annoyances on the GUI side on OS/X (and Sierra)! Some recent issues are, app store crashing when you click the menu and press Cmd+Q, a lot of confusion on the terminal app between the use of command and ctrl, alt, and other key combinations. A lot of drivers being obsolete and unsupported after jump to Sierra. The update/packaging mechanism being a total failure, where I need to update xcode by downloading 4.5GB of files again and again. Apple software appears so far to me an incomplete toy, filled by annoying delaying animations. Apple fails to develop stable software just for couple of hardware, while having a fanatic user base which can accept any kind of planned obsolescence. Sad.

I feel the same way. While I don't like the way macos has progressed recently, and I think the new MBP is almost a joke, I can't find any other brand that offers a good computer with a comparable trackpad, battery life and build quality. On top of this, Apple's support has spoiled me, and I can't imagine having to go through Dell's for example now. Lastly, while macos may have been lacking recently, as a developer having a unix OS of course is way better than Windows, while Linux has some issues when it comes to using it as a leisure computer. Right now I'm really happy my 2012 rMBP is still working amazingly, as for the first time I can't seem to find a single laptop I would want to buy.

I have two MBPrs (work, home) and they feel like childrens toys next to my friends Razer Blade Stealth and XPS 13s. I haven't seen the new Asus Zenbook in person but it's reviews are incredible. Do yourself a favor and go to the MS store and try out the latest laptops, they're incredibly feature rich and the issues with track pads is almost gone now that pretty much everyone uses glass and Windows 10 native drivers as opposed to synaptic/ELAN drivers.

I'm only using MBPrs for OSX at this point. If Apple licensed out the OS to other manufacturers there is not a slivers chance I would be using their hardware anymore, unfortunately I don't feel like dealing with a hackintop (can't run it on Kaby Lake yet, either). But I also don't keep a laptop for 4 years, I typically refresh yearly or bi-yearly (depending on the Intel release cycle). I was actually expecting this new MBPr to be Kaby Lake with a 32gb max and was going to upgrade from my 2015, but I guess I'll wait for the next update unless I move back to a windows PC with linux (I'm aware of the TDP limitations).

Some great recent reviews with different options; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEwOCfv6Ucg

I've held off getting a new mac for about a year already, but this 'refresh' is the first time I'm seriously considering moving away from Apple. The most interesting options appear to be the XPS (13(s?)) and one of the Razer Blade laptops.

What keeps me from the XPS is really bad experience with Dell and the fact that I can't seem to customize it on the Dutch Dell site. And, perhaps more importantly, I keep hearing that the trackpad sucks. What is your experience with it?

The issue I have with the Razor is that it's apparently not so easy to get in Holland. Any thoughts on that?

Or, for that matter, any other suggestions you can think of? I keep hearing good things about the ThinkPads, but they're too ugly for my taste...

Some years back I bought Dell's Mobile Precision Workstation, with an extended support contract.

The price was about that of a MBP, and its battery life probably worse. But overall I was very pleased with the purchase.

At least back then, the people who provided support for their workstation-class products seemed to be a totally different group within Dell. They were far more responsive and helpful than Dell's non-workstation support people are reputed to be.

I've only used MBPs and Thinkpads for the last 5-10 years or so, so I can't really comment on extensive use of other laptops. I know a number of people with XPS 13s and honestly haven't heard any complaints.

I'm EXTREMELY wary of Razer products as I hear nothing but complaints about their mice/keyboards breaking and the fact that they put out a laptop that gets such rave reviews and seems very well received really kind of blows my mind. Maybe someone else manufacturers it. Normally I'd say stay away from Razer, but I've watched review after review and know people with the Stealth and they love them.

Thinkpads are great but their screens were abysmal for the longest time. The newer ones I believe have really upped the game but it was years and years of them offing 1368x720 or so resolution on their 12-13s with low quality TN panels. They're the ultimate "Pro" machines in my mind. They're super customizable, from docks to adding on extra battery packs, etc.

With that said, I use my laptop as a desktop. I never, ever use the trackpad unless I'm on a flight or laying in bed or something so the trackpad isn't a deal breaker to me. I don't ever use gestures or anything like that. I get serious hand cramps when I'm forced to use a trackpad for more than simple quick things.

Take a look at that Youtube channel I posted (MobileTechReviews) she does fantastic reviews on ultrabooks. She's a MBP user herself so she's fantastic at comparing the various competitors to it. She sounds very unhappy with Apple in that specific video I posted, though.

Unfortunately I'm in the USA so I can't speak on affordability/access to the devices in Holland. I saw a breakdown of the EU prices on the new MBP + vat and it was terrible. Something like a $200-300 mark up when the pound is $1.09 to a dollar plus +$300 VAT.

The guy who I watched break down the pricing is Irish and was pretty livid about Apple using them as a tax haven then arbitrarily marking up (beyond EU/$ difference) the prices for him in Ireland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQtrmjubfEo

My last laptop was running Linux Mint and I had zero problems with anything other than a couple of useful (Popclip) small OSX apps missing and 1password has to be run in Wine but their Chrome plugin can't find the main app because it's running in Wine (there's an old fix on github but it hasn't been updated in a year or two and I don't believe works anymore).

I'm actually testing running OSX in a VM now to see if it's viable for day to day development. Evidently a fix for the screen lag caused by vsync was made (it's called beam on osx).

The thing I actually really like about Mac laptops is that there are no vents or intake fans on the bottom, so it can actually be used on your lap without trying to keep your knees in just the right spot. Apple has a pretty unique cooling system that seems to be hard to find elsewhere.

It's hard to beat Apple store support where you can bring it egregiously broken products and walk out with brand new replacements at no charge (recently exchanged my 2 year old premium iPhone headphones which had literally broken the headphone jack off for a totally free replacement no questions asked, a couple months before that I had my 3 year old BT keyboard replaced for free after batteries exploded inside it). Their hardware quality (materials, performance, durability and longevity), customer support, low level tech (like batteries) and hardware aesthetics are great. It also seems like their laptops tend to last ~5+ years.

"...and longevity"

I never had a laptop that I used as long as my MBP (2011) and it's still going strong.

That being said the problem with the new Macbook Pro's is that in their quest of making things thinner a lot of possibilities regarding future upgrades disappeared. Through the years I have upgrade my RAM and replaced the HDD with a SSD. I spend in total (including the macbook pro itself) 1500 euro's max and that over a couple of years.

I do work but I'm also disabled making that my income is not at the range that I honestly can afford the new Macbook Pro's or can cough the amount to get a configuration that will last me 5 years... The base model costs more than my current system (including the upgrades) and the price they ask for a simple 16Gb RAM makes the cost even more out of my reach. And unfortunately in this we aren't able to buy refurbs from the store as it only includes iPods and iPads.

That being said there are more important things in life than a MBP and I'm also thinking about my post mac life that will happen when my current machine dies.

How is the XPS a Macbook Air clone? Because it has aluminium on the outside? The XPS looks better than any of the Macbooks if you ask me.

It does not work well. In particular, the Dell trackpad has either bad hardware or drivers or both, but it so bad that it significantly detracts from the product's usability.

I don't know about the recent models, but the original Studio XPS 13 (2009) literally used exactly the same basic hardware as the 13" MacBook air at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if they've continued that trend to at least a lesser extent.

The XPS line is on Kaby Lake now so they're literally a generation ahead of the just announced MBPs.

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