Comment by fitzwatermellow | Hacker News Reader

Comment by fitzwatermellow | Hacker News Reader

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fitzwatermellow

Totally 100% well deserved. Just imagine the 13 year old out there discovering "Masters of War" or "Idiot Wind" for the first time today. Their entire point of view is about to change. Mind upon to hitherto unknowable vistas. Ergo, the absolute benchmark of what Great Literature strives to embody.

Also worth checking out is Dylan's controversial speech upon receiving the the MusiCares Person of the Year 2015 award. I wonder what he'll have to say to the World when he gets to Stockholm ;)

Read Bob Dylan's Complete, Riveting MusiCares Speech

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/read-bob-dylans-compl...

And of course some essential viewing. D.A. Pennebaker's seminal documentary classic Don't Look Back which follows Dylan on his concert tour of the U.K. in 1965.

Inside Criterion's Incredible Restoration of Dylan Doc 'Don't Look Back'

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/inside-the-restorati...

And from that timeless English tour, a masterful performance ;)

"It Ain't Me Babe" (Live, 5/7/65 - Free Trade Hall, Manchester, England)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d8o8vNTNao

That MusiCares speech is a great read if you have 30 minutes to spare. A few favorite bits:

On Dylan's immersion in classic folk:

>If you sang "John Henry" as many times as me – "John Henry was a steel-driving man / Died with a hammer in his hand / John Henry said a man ain't nothin' but a man / Before I let that steam drill drive me down / I'll die with that hammer in my hand." If you had sung that song as many times as I did, you'd have written "How many roads must a man walk down?" too.

On what's often missing from rock & roll:

>The other half of rock & roll has got to be hillbilly. And that's a derogatory term, but it ought not to be. That's a term that includes the Delmore Bros., Stanley Bros., Roscoe Holcomb, Git Tanner and the Skillet Lickers... groups like that. Moonshine gone berserk. Fast cars on dirt roads. That's the kind of combination that makes up rock & roll, and it can't be cooked up in a science laboratory or a studio.

The MusicCares speech is great; thanks. An interesting excerpt:

I learned lyrics and how to write them from listening to folk songs. And I played them, and I met other people that played them, back when nobody was doing it. Sang nothing but these folk songs, and they gave me the code for everything that's fair game, that everything belongs to everyone.

Does Dylan allow bootlegging? Are his songs libre? Does he limit their use or charge royalties? Can I sample one without his permission?

EDIT: The very last line of the speech, as printed: Copyright 2015 Bob Dylan

I think hes talking mostly about the folk song tradition. If you look in both blues/folk there are a lot of songs that are very similar, with almost interchangeable lyrics by many different artists.

The song Little Sadie is one example - its been known under a variety of names, with variations of lyrics. All the John Henry songs - they have been sung by blues and country players alike for almost a century.

> I think hes talking mostly about the folk song tradition.

He says he's part of that tradition, and at length talks about how he benefited from it. Does he give back?

It's not a debate about giving music rights out.

If someone makes a song that sounds a lot like a Dylan song, it would be telling how he would react. He's taking about musical evolution, not free streaming.

Yes, he goes into length explaining how he created his own versions of Ballad of John Henry and "Key to the highway". You are missing the point.

"Hey Joe" is thought to be inspired by Little Sadie. Its not about ripping off, its about telling the same story in a different way - story telling.

Based on what I know about folk music - at one time I listened to a bunch of it and learned about its traditions, but I'm hardly an expert - that's not true.

By that tradition, folk songs are for everyone to play and sing, not only for a professional to perform for you. There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared; it's not about profit, and intellectual property is almost an opposed concept. To a degree, it's like free/libre software and makers.

IIRC, folk music legend Woody Guthrie kept his songs simple so that anyone could play them. And a more recent folk singer printed (maybe still prints) on all her recordings, where the copyright info usually appears, Unauthorized reproduction, while sometimes necessary, is never as good as the real thing.

>> There's a communal, shared, DIY philosophy behind it; it's art by and for regular people (folk art), to be shared;

Yes, I agree. I guess I dont see the conflict. If you play any of these songs, change a few verses, some melody and some chords, then you can claim the copyright just like Bob Dylan did. That is what I think he is trying to get at in that speech.

Notice how is says the following in his copyright claim:

"Basis of Claim: New Matter: rev. melody & new music." [1]

There are many artists that have copyright claims for the same essential song title. Search for Walking Blues, John Hardy or any old fiddle tune like Shady Grove, Blackberry blossom, man of constant sorrow etc. There are a ton of these songs out there where anybody can make their own mark and claim the copyright because literally everybody does it.

Try doing that with 'Times are a changin' and I can guarantee you its not the same unspoken code because its not one of those tunes that have been passed down by generations of musicians and told and retold. The bar will likely be much higher for you to claim your artistic expression on that copyright.

That was the point I was trying to make here. I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing.

[1] http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=14&ti=1,14...

Thanks for your thoughtful response

> I mainly objected to your 'Can I sample one without his permission?' since I don't think its the same thing.

I understand your point and I agree that's the reality of it, but I'm saying that isn't how it has to be. It isn't the same thing in some qualitative ways, as you say, but mainly because Dylan chooses to make it different. Like all the FOSS developers, all those Grateful Dead bootlegs, and all those traditional folk tunes, and some folk singers (and other musicians) in the recorded era, he could have made his libre. My guess is that like Tim Berners-Lee, Linus Torvalds, and many others, he wouldn't be homeless, that is unless he prefers to keep traveling.

Thats a good point, I agree completely. The whole music business has become very dog-eat-dog :(

> Does Dylan allow bootlegging? Are his songs libre? Does he limit their use or charge royalties? Can I sample one without his permission?

I'm not sure of the legal rights involved, but he spent nearly the first half of his speech thanking individual artists for covering his songs, so I'd say it's fair game in his eyes.

Musical covers are allowed under mechanical copyrights.

For live performances, the venue carries an ASCAP license, I believe on an annual rate. I don't know how royalties are attributed to individual songwriters.

For recordings, the recording company is, as I understand, responsible for paying royalties to the songwriter.

Note that songwriters and composers get royalties, but recording artists are typically only compensated for their studio time. This bit of legal context for revenues is a reason for the difference between recording artists (much better deal for the studio) and singer-songwriters (much savvier for the artist).

His representatives are generally very lenient on unreleased material and very strict on material that's commercially available.

The labels that distribute his works control that.

>The other half of rock & roll has got to be hillbilly. And that's a derogatory term, but it ought not to be. That's a term that includes the Delmore Bros., Stanley Bros., Roscoe Holcomb, Git Tanner and the Skillet Lickers... groups like that. Moonshine gone berserk. Fast cars on dirt roads. That's the kind of combination that makes up rock & roll, and it can't be cooked up in a science laboratory or a studio.

Considering that most of the rock & roll I listen to comes from Britain, I have no idea what he considers rock & roll to be. It's certainly not american folk music.

Keith Richards and his school buddy, Mick Jagger, bonded by nerding out over American folk music ('Life' is a fun read), including both rhythm and blues and the kind of hillbilly stuff Dylan refers to. So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon. It's kind of amazing how rock and roll became so much greater when it was exported and imported.

> So did Paul McCartney and John Lennon.

Do you hear this in any of their work? I only hear it in "Rocky Racoon", which is one of my least favorite beatles songs as a result.

I can't say I'm a fan of Stones-style rock and roll. I'd prefer Led Zeppelin; much less caterwauling and more music.

The same Led Zeppelin that borrowed all those American blues and country riffs throughout their career?

If you educate yourself on American music from the 20s-50s you'll realize the true extent of the influence on the British music of the 60s and 70s. It's a lot more than Rocky Raccoon but if you're ignorant of country music you're not going to hear the guitar licks, drum patterns and vocal inflections that show up in many of the recordings by the Beatles.

There's no shortage of literature on these influences so how about we just leave any additional education on the matter to personal study, eh?

> The same Led Zeppelin that borrowed all those American blues and country riffs throughout their career?

I see that easily, it's the folk influence I have a (harder) time with.

Tangerine? Bron-yr-Aur Stomp? Stairway? They had Sandy "Fairport Convention" Denny as a guest singer.

Led Zep are absolutely in the English folk tradition – distinct but related to the American scene – as well as the blues one.

Well, you hear it in Led Zeppelin, too. While the members were heavily influenced by the blues artists of the time, songs like "gallows pole" and "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" and "Hey hey what can I do?" show that influence. They also have a variety of songs heavily influenced by the Rockabilly genre, which also has a folk-roots influence. "Hot Dog", "boogie with stu", and "Candy Store Rock" all count in that regard.

Rock and Roll has key influence from both the folk traditions, and the blues ones. And in many ways, baroque and early music which influenced bluegrass.

Excerpts from the Zep Wikipedia article:

"The band's heavy, guitar-driven sound, rooted in blues( and psychedelia on their early albums, has earned them recognition as one of the progenitors of heavy metal, though their unique style drew from a wide variety of influences, including folk music."

"The four played together for the first time in a room below a record store on Gerrard Street in London.[17] Page suggested that they attempt "Train Kept A-Rollin'", originally a jump blues song popularised in a rockabilly version by Johnny Burnette, which had been covered by the Yardbirds."

A lot of great rock-and-roll has come out of Britain... if you trace how it got there, it comes back to the same people Dylan is talking about (not solely, but the Hillbillies are there).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin

If you search for the story of how they met, McCartney played Lennon some Little Richard (R&B) and some Gene Vincent (Hillbilly), both US imports. It impressed Lennon and his buds enough that they decided to invite McCartney in to the band. Listen to their earliest records, and look at who they cover, and you'll find more.

Speaking of Led Zeppelin:

The Crunge is a James Brown tribute. When the Levee breaks references the American Blues tradition pretty explicitly (I'm going to Chicago). In My Time of Dying is an old gospel tune from Louisana. Dazed and Confused was a cover of an American blues tune, etc.

Clapton was a similar story. He's the first to say his biggest inspiration was Robert Johnson.

The Beatles had a much stronger US influence in their earlier work than their later work. They had multiple singles that were Chuck Berry covers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skiffle#Revival_in_the_United_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quarrymen

All of Rubber Soul.

And outside of Rubber Soul, "I've Just Seen a Face" comes to mind. What a brilliant song.

And closing the circle, it's been covered by many American bluegrass bands:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=i%27ve+just+see...

"What goes on", from the British release of Rubber Soul, is pretty country sounding. I like the song, but it certainly isn't one of their more famous, though.

That is a great song.

For the Stones, specifically the blues.

I'd encourage you to investigate the link between Clapton and American folk music. I could post links, but I'd just be doing what I'm encouraging you to do - research this a bit.

I mean I realize the link—assuming you're calling american blues "folk", that is—but it's just that, a link, not an identity. Clapton certainly sounds unique. I'm more interested in the fact that he thinks rock & roll is actually a discrete genre rather than a band format.

I'm also not a huge fan of Clapton sans Cream OR the Stones, so maybe I just don't like american flavored rock & roll. It didn't really click for me until Iggy Pop showed up. It didn't feel right to be caught halfway between him and Woody Guthrie—both ends make sense, but the middle sounds terrible to me.

I'd love to highlight Lynyrd Skynyrd as a prime example of American Rock. I think the link in their music is much clearer.

Do you like Wilco?

I can't say I'm a huge fan; I prefer the, erm, Iron & Wine style of soft crooning.

I don't know. I like Dylan's music alright, but reading the lyrics posted here and imagining how they would sound on their own (If you've heard the songs, you tend to impose the music on them when you read them), I don't think they're particularly impressive. If you slipped, say, "The Ballad of a Thin Man" into a poetry anthology I don't believe many people coming across it blind would consider it one of the greats.

Is it right to consider the lyrics without the music? Isn't that a little like reading a literal translation of a poem in another language?

Works for the Tao Te Ching, and others. You lose something but not enough you can't see the genius if it's there.

For Dylan I'd actually prefer to consider his lyrics without the music since sometimes I can't really understand what he's singing. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLCewTcb-jc)

I love that comparison. Just came here to say that.

I don't know what the official criteria are but I'm going to think of the prize decision as recognizing his incredible songs as art in themselves rather than just the lyrics as "literature".

Maybe. I took the fact that this is a Nobel Prize in Literature and that the site states that they awarded it to him for "new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition" as meaning this was about his lyrics.

I was probably 13 or so when I bought a "Freewheelin Bob Dylan" cassette out of a bargain bin for maybe a dollar. I thought then, and think now, that "Masters of War" was embarrassingly juvenile. I mean, come on:

  And I hope that you die
  And your death’ll come soon
  I will follow your casket
  In the pale afternoon
  And I’ll watch while you’re lowered
  Down to your deathbed
  And I’ll stand o’er your grave
  Til I’m sure that you’re dead

Really right up there with "Suicide is Painless". And rhyming deathbed and "you're dead" is an awkward classic finish. I wouldn't bother opining this way but that dumb song's reputation is truly bizarre.

"Suicide is Painless" is a great song.

There are plenty of prices for excellence in young adult literature. The noble price shouldn't be one of them.

> The nobel price

You aren't even trying.

Also No Direction Home, which encompass and expands on Don't Look Back is equally excellent.

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