Am I Introverted, or Just Rude?
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
I'm also not trying to be rude, it is more like some uncontrollable ADD that makes my attention wander when I'm in social situations. But get a few early nights and walks alone and I'm back to normal. When I'm rested I've been told that I'm engaging and funny, but when I'm not people (well, at least extroverts) think I'm being aloof and, as the author said, rude. But needing to sleep or to use the restroom isn't considered rude, so I really feel that my recharge time should be similar. Or maybe I just need a better way of handling it.
Are there any introverts out there who have developed coping mechanisms for dealing with people when you're already peopled out, and are willing to chime in?
I said, "No, no, I'm just tired."
She said, "It's ok if you don't want to talk. Just say so."
Thirty-eight years after we met, I think she's on to me.
I'd like to think that much of the time she generally understands me, and bless her heart she really does her best, but sometimes when it gets late my ability to maintain conversation just tapers off and crashes. Now I'm not sure if it's me being rude or it's just some mental block that happens! I really want to believe it's the latter, because my ability to stay engaged diminishes after about 9PM and my mind wanders. It's like a conversation shut-off valve clicks in my head.
The plus side is that she is probably better at reading me than I am, so she usually detects when I'm reaching that point before I do.
I swear we've even had the same conversation.
Fortunately we keep good humor about it, and I do try not to do it too often and am usually successful.
But for when I'm peopled out, I definitely have some tricks:
* Go to the bathroom and spend a couple of minutes in peace.
* Say "Hey, it's noisy/hot/chaotic in here; want to get some fresh air?"
* At work, I like doing walking meetings, which are less socially intense for me.
* Have socially acceptable reasons for leaving early. E.g., running regularly in the mornings means I can say, "Oh, gotta get up early to train for my race!"
* Minimizing other things that draw down my sociability, like noisy work environments.
* Get people talking to one another. E.g., "You mentioned X. Let me grab Jane, who's very interested in X too!"
I've also had some luck going to events with introvert buddies. If you both go get some quiet together, it doesn't look like you're being antisocial.
I know this sounds a bit cold but surely this is better than I repeatedly decline their invitations, isn't it? And my purpose is pure, I want to be more friendly. Surprisingly, it turns out that since experimenting with this technique I am actually happier than when in the old fake-engaging mode. Also the arsenal of my chit-chatting topics are expanding gloriously because of a better understanding of the persons in front of me.
Most of the times the people(their personal histories, their intentions to be here, their appearances, etc.) are more interesting than whatever their words at the moment. As an example let's consider people's wardrobe, you can ask yourself why does this guy or that lady dress like that for this particular gathering? Did they put thoughts into choosing the clothes or they didn't? If you think they did choose carefully, what were their thoughts? What does the choice say about their personalities, their views on this gathering and people here, their background, etc. What information do this pair of shoes give out about their owner? Even such a small matter can give you a lot to chew on. At least for me this is not boring stuff.
I have used this technique for a few years to a certain extent of success. I admit it's easier said than done. So when in meeting I try to split my attention into two halves, one on listening to the conversation itself(the words people are saying), the other half on studying the persons.
[1]https://www.amazon.com/Unmasking-Social-Engineer-Element-Sec...
But recently started in with the questions and so on with some people who didn't want anything questioned all that much. Understandable as, frankly, it's not all that relaxing to have someone questioning you who's obviously trying to sort of challenge your beliefs and opinions. Not everyone wants to talk through or possibly think through things and I regret it a little. The problem is that these people were comfortable with a certain amount of discussion intensity but there was a line. And I crossed it. It was a little tense. Ugh.
And it's not about disagreement. I mis-characterized that a bit. It's about taking it up a notch in intensity.
Fake it. I realised couple of years back that there are times when I am not really interested in the conversation but its rude to zone out so I pretend and act as if I am interested.
@smsm42 we might not be able to run like Usain Bolt, but we are able to force ourselves to maintain concentration and pretend for a while.
This is not something I can control. I don't enjoy it and I'm not doing it on purpose. I've used this analogy too many times on this story already, but it is like I'm horribly sleep deprived and people want me to stay awake for things that I'm utterly incapable of doing in my present state.
Thing is... most people either (a) don't know you well enough to say that you're being flakey or (b) aren't paying that much attention... the free flowing alcohol of adult-aged parties and meetings really helps with this respect.
How do you fake it without putting in concentration? Pay attention to what other people do in similar circumstances: platitudes, sounds of agreement, sticking to unspectacular and unnovel topics like weather/books/sports. I know personally, I don't even like certain sports, but after hearing 3-4 conversations about a particular team, I can regurgitate the mosaic of other peoples opinions about the team.
I actively try to avoid acting rude whenever I can, but in the area I live, I am generally not interested in what people have to say.
Fortunately, parent didn't advice to fake running like Bolt, just to fake something everybody (except a tiny minority with actual clinical issues) can do: feign interest.
Unfortunately, don't have a very good recipe except trying to mostly either meet with people I have common interests or pursuits or passions and do not over-extend the interactions past the point where it begins to be taxing both parties, or just leave when I feel my "batteries" are drained enough to the point where I can't be socially adequate. Most people will accept something like "got to work early in the morning" - which also may independently be true :) - and will feel much better than with bad simulation of social behavior.
Not all people understand that some people have limits like this.
What is the objective justification for calling skipping a gathering of strangers rude? Who is to say that a society where people are more apart won't turn out better, once people get over the antiquated notion that they MUST be connected or they are somehow defective?
"There are many excuses for failing to conduct ourselves with courtesy, for avoiding gatherings and conversations we don’t think we will enjoy, or for just putting on our pajamas and staying home. Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others.
That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness."
Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? Most of the introverts I've gotten to know are exceedingly kind and loyal once they view you as a legitimate human being.
I don't think so, at least not on my experience. I think just some people have limits on how much social interaction they can do - just as some people have limits on how much they can run or lift - and closer to the limit, harder it becomes. If somebody invited you to run a marathon, you may happily accept or you may politely decline if you are not a big runner. If somebody would invite you to a party where you have to bring a grand piano to the top of the hill just for the fun of it - you may enthusiastically accept or decline if you're not a fan of lifting grand pianos. For some introverts social interaction, especially with a lot of previously unknown people, is work - and one may be just not inclined to do that amount of hard work that day.
> We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others.
This is a basic truth, everybody does that, except a very few people we call "saints". Everybody who doesn't give up all their possessions beyond basic physical subsistence, does not live under the bridge and spends at least a minute of their day for anything other than satisfying needs of others is "selfish" this way - and it's completely normal and IMHO one doesn't have to feel eternally guilty about it.
No. Introversion is not damage. Introversion is not about lack of trust.
It is entirely possible to be "exceedingly kind and loyal", and yet also find socializing to be tiring and not really enjoyable.
I really don't think that is the case, introverts aren't "broken angels who just need to be won over," they have completely different internal motivations.
If that's your argument, then it boils down to extroverts evidently being able to "get over it" much better than introverts.
For example, no amount of conscious effort allows me to let go of bad social encounters, so instead I have a treasure chest of repressed memories over several years (my brain likes to pull one out at random late at night just to torture me sometimes).
Further social interaction always puts me at risk of accumulating more bad experiences that can't be let go, so as a result I have to work extra hard whenever I talk to strangers or acquaintances to overcome the anxiety and "perform well". Around close family where I can be myself, social interaction is not exhausting and I feel like an extrovert.
In other words, perhaps inability to "get over it" leads to social anxiety which leads to taxing social interactions which leads to introversion (...which leads to suffering).
Doesn't necessarily explain introversion for all people, though.
I'm pretty sure that's not the case. One shouldn't mix introversion, shyness and social anxiety. It might be easier to develop social anxiety if your're an introverted or shy person, but you can't overcome your introversion like you can overcome your social anxiety, they're just completely different things.
The whole article was trying desperately to shoehorn the quote above as the ultimate truth, but it neglects important nuances and makes me wonder what the author's agenda is. Is the inverse statement true, that extraverts care more about others? That their behaviour is less selfish? Or could it be that both extraverts and introverts can be both selfish and generous, depending ultimately on the individual. That extroversion can be a tool to network with others for no other reason than to gain social mind-share for personal profit, as well as be used to build meaningful relationships depending on how it's wielded and the intention of the user? Or that introversion can be an excuse to snub ones peers as well as a tool to focus their efforts on what they find important, including helping others, rather than spreading themselves thin on many (often meaningless) endeavours?
The author's perspective betrays the unspoken expectations of their culture (as does the name of the publisher). In North Western Europe it's not unusual to keep to yourself and avoid small talk. My partner and I can go for hours without talking to each other while sitting in the same room, often next to each other. You don't have to discuss every idea or observation that pops into your head. You can let an idea brew in your mind, digest it so that when you do discuss it, you can start at a more sophisticated level rather than babbling half formed thoughts and filling the verbal voids with "...like, you know..."
This odd anxiety where if you're not doing or saying something, that you can't just stare out the window and watch the world pass by - that the proper thing to do is to pick up your phone, call a friend, and perform a post-mortem on the little thoughts buzzing around in your head gives me the fucking shits. Sit down quietly and form a cogent thought for one minute PLEASE. Then you'll have something worth talking about.
Introversion and extroversion are a gross and simplified categorization of our personal needs. One or the other may be more socially acceptable, but both are selfish.
If you want to posit feeding the homeless at a soup kitchen as satisfying a desire to feel helpful or fulfilling the wishes of a deity you wish to please in order to secure your place in the afterlife which is ultimately selfish then sure. Let's go one step further and admit we're in a deterministic universe and we have no free will. That takes care of everything. It helps the next beer go down knowing that, despite saying I wasn't going to drink today, it was always going to happen and was determined nearly 14 billion years ago :-)
You could, quite correctly, classify my responses as selfish acts of showing off to gain meaningless kudos in an online forum...or more charitably classify them as thoughtful discourse between people interested in esoteric topics.
Like you're saying, it's a grim way to look at things and it's even a quite simplified view.
Sure, people sometimes help because of more selfish reasons, that they want to be praised, but I'm pretty sure that pure empathy for people can also be a quite big motivation to help.
Most people focus on their own thing and aren't all that concerned if yours isn't the exact copy. In other words, I don't think people are really looking and judging MOST of the time that someone thinks they are. Chances are they look disapproving because they have a headache, are tired, and have too much shit to get done to be there and happen to be looking one direction or another, it could be yours.
I just can't follow this reasoning. People are not entitled to my casual time. I am delighted that there are people in my life who wish I were present more, and it's unfortunate for all concerned that I do not always feel inclined to be. But it is not a wrong done, just an unfortunate circumstance.
Failing to recognize and live in the grey area somewhere in between (where there is a lot of fair play for diversity which sums up to an individual's personality) doesn't mark you as "introverted" like it's some disability and therefore should be respected, it's simply inconsiderate and if you're unaware of this, it's willful ignorance.
It's not against the law to be inconsiderate, nobody should force you to be different. Just don't expect others to like you, and don't get bitter when they don't.
In other words, when it comes to your "casual time" thinking you're entitled to all of it without reproach is just as bad as someone else thinking they can take any of it at a whim.
That being said, if I decline any and all invitations, I also have no right to expect to have friends who I can rely on, discover networking opportunities or really meaningful relationships.
It's not inherently rude to decline invitations, but I have to also understand there are consequences.
For example, besides from extreme exceptions, it's definitely rude to decline an invitation to your sister's wedding because you don't feel like it.
Likewise it's definitely not rude to decline an invitation to lunch with the coworkers you eat with every day to prepare for an important meeting.
Digging into the weeds about what we really mean by "entitled" and "rude" is probably not productive.
Also, I am introverted. It really exists, and doesn't need scare quotes. I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to frame it as a disability, but it certainly conveys a different set of abilities than those of extroverts.
Also, I don't even understand why you scare quoted casual time. Do you not distinguish time in which you have obligations to others from time in which you don't?
I use "scare quotes" in both circumstances to call into question or express doubt about the legitimacy of the words in context; or in other words to indicate that I'm trying to discuss the usage of the word or phrase instead of it's understood meaning. (I quote "scare quotes" because I'm dubious as to the appropriate usage of the phrase, frightening or insulting anyone with my typography isn't the intent) And I have no idea what "casual time" is. There's a lot of meaning to infer but a lot more meaning to be uncertain about. It's not a phrase I do or would use, but I'm talking about somebody else's usage of that and indicating that by literally quoting them.
The point I was trying to make is that it's wrong to conflate poor social graces with introversion... or there's a strong difference between preferring more time alone and selfishly insisting on your preferences. Extroverts can be just as rude in their own ways.
More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because I'm/they're/it's an X"
Regarding scare quotes: your usage is exactly what is meant by the term. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes.
Casual time is meant to be taken literally, it's not some special jargon, just two words put together. I also clarified the meaning in my previous response.
I don't think anyone but the NYT article author is conflating poor social graces with introversion. My response to that was to unapologetically insist that it is not a matter of rudeness to find socialization burdensome, nor to decline that burden when it is not necessary.
> More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because I'm/they're/it's an X"
I cannot relate to this worry, it's not something I experience. But in case it's not clear, that is in no way what I was saying. In this context, I would say:
- I am an introvert. That's a fact about me, can't change it, don't even want to most of the time.
- I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by said introversion.
--- > I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by said introversion.
I think frequent refusal to face discomfort for the benefit of others is rude. You have to strike a balance in your life, but there are a lot of ways to strike that balance which are profoundly selfish.
I don't know you, but I've known too many people that went out looking for labels for themselves and when they found them identified with them and let them define who they were. Taking tenancies of a thing and having them reinforced and piled on until a personality trait gets turned into a a problem. I think teaching people that there's this introvert/extrovert dichotomy should be considered harmful because it misses the complexity of people and pushes folks towards extremes instead of enlightening them about themselves.
This is what being introverted is like, without a sort of social-sleep away from people it is impossible to keep the social part of your brain active in people's presence. You are constantly trying to walk a fine line between offending people by not showing up (which allows you to recharge) and offending people by being socially disfunctional in their presence (which just leaves you more depleted). I don't know if perhaps the introvert phenomenon is maybe something on the very mild end of the autism spectrum, but I do know that, at least without years of experience in dealing with an introvert they care about, extroverts cannot comprehend it without pathologising it in some way.
So, if I don't want to go to social events, I won't go to social events. Period.
I also see no reason why I should have to justify my choice. The only justification is "because that's what I want to do". If that's not good enough, too bad!
What are you going to do, sue me for "selfishly refusing to meet people in my spare time"? I also find people who bike across the Alps in their free time weird, but it's their choice, and it makes them happy -- live and let live!
I automatically distance myself to people who keep asking to meet up or invite me to stuff where I'm obliged to respond. It has gotten better and easier since I finally stopped making up excuses and just tell them I don't want to.
> At first, saying “no” to fund-raisers and coffees brought with it a keen, almost illicit pleasure. What freedom! I started slipping out of meetings and school assemblies at the first possible moment instead of staying to chat. On one delicious occasion, I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function.
seem like perfectly reasonable behavior? I couldn't care less if someone I knew did this. I had no idea saying no to coffee was rude.
Presumably, if you break one of these rules, e.g. by saying no to some big gathering, you'll be offending someone. This would seem to suggest that there are people out there industriously keeping track of who fails to show up to gatherings and holding it against them. Really? Here, at the end of a century that saw the perfection of human flight, two world wars, and ongoing efforts to make us a multiplanetary species?
If not dragging myself out to spend several hours making small talk is rude, can I just be rude?
It's more that relationships require investment. If you never show up to events or coffee with me, don't expect me to be your friend in the future. Similarly, don't expect a deep relationship with your children if instead of interacting with them (or cheering them on) you are always alone or distant.
A single instance isn't rude, but the pattern definitely leads to (justifiable) social isolation.
I went back to the article and found the problem, right here, where she ties together being uncivil in the inevitable human interactions of our day (e.g., bringing your bad energy into the dog park) with how you choose to build community beyond that, implicitly comparing her choices with yours. That's the default tone of the self-congratulatory prig.
Yes, it is good to stretch your comfort zone to meet new people and help build community without choosing situations that would make you miserable. Strangers? Ipso facto good? Rubbish. She may have scared more people off getting out than she inspired as some misguided soul is right now looking at Meetups, choosing "random after dark random networking with drinks" over the LUG. Sure, join the political group or the book club if it inspires you.
"Years ago, I was habitually late. “I can’t help it!” I declared to an expert in time management (I’d turned my effort to reform into a magazine article, as writers do, which gave me the excuse to seek professional help)."
And by the way, showing up late is garden variety selfish behavior that directly harms at least one other actual human being. The author managed to slip in a less insidious self congratulations here, too, a lot of work for one sentence.
I don't want to seem rude, but what usually gets me with such cutesy sayings is that it's wholly trite and unoriginal, and why would you want that on a t-shirt you wear?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+did....
If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am. You're just trying to explain something as complex as an introvert's inside life and not doing so well.
So, maybe I do feel for the author of the piece.
I feel also that (as an introvert), it's not that I don't want to hang out with my wonderful friends, it's just that there's something I want to do much, much, more, that just happens to be something I do alone. Tonight, my friends want to go dancing, and I love dancing (and I love my friends), but the weather is nice tomorrow, and riding a bike longer than anyone I know would want to is completely irresistible to me. My hobbies have become so extreme as I'm the only one that now participates in them. Anyone can go drinking and dancing. It's inclusive like that.
Amen to that. I can't actually imagine wearing such a shirt myself, nor can I imagine most other introverts doing so.
Such shirts seem to be entirely designed for extroverts who want to seem edgy and thereby draw attention to themselves.
It's more or less the reason I'd never put on a custum and walk around, even though this is Oregon. I'd just not feel comfortable as even here most people are gonna look at you when you walk by and soon I'd assume it's ALL people. Then I'd start running, probably, barely making through the door to crack a beer and recover.
I DO NOT like to attract the attention of strangers as it's intrusive on the person doing the looking (hard to avoid walking by). Frankly, when people wear something to get looked at, not a normal saying on their shirt, but something offensive. It's not the words but the intrusion I find offensive. I feel the same about people who talk on their phone in public places or have loud conversations that step on my conversation or quiet.
Though if I got in the habit of wearing a crazy costume and did other crazy stuff like leaving the house, all my hang-ups would work themselves out.
The first step is always the hardest, but after you take it, surprinsingly and for your joy, everything will fall into place.
I don't know if this happens to you, but I was always wondering what would people think of me in certain situations, for example talking on my phone in public (where everybody can hear what I say), or wearing a sight-seeker shirt or something along those lines. That really hold me down to do things. So I also figured, most people don't give a shit, and if they comment about it, 10 min later they would have already forgotten. And of top of that, chances are you'll never see them again in your lifetime. That helped me destroy these irrational thoughts I don't even know where the hell I got them on the first place.
But I have a ton of anxiety about doing or wearing something embarrassing in front of people I have to work with or talk to on a daily basis.
So, for the most part I keep my mouth shut unless spoken to, and just try to copy what other people wear. That way I'm mostly known as the quiet or shy person rather than the bizarre, awkward fellow. Inevitably I'll eventually acquire all of those labels if someone is around me enough, but at least I can make "quiet" outweigh "bizarre" nine times out of ten.
What the heck, I was trying to google disapproving (spelling) and got disapproving cat. Is that a thing? Never mind, off topic.
My point, you're right.
I am back on heroin. I write this not for shock factor because, frankly, I don't give a shit about how anyone feels about it.
I write this as a warning to those wise enough to hear, about how being introverted can easily lead to a lonely, fairly miserable life as you grow older.
My excuse was always the same as I hear here...I'm not interested in shallow conversation or discussing things with people whom seem to have almost complete misunderstandings of the basics of things etc etc.
I am 51yo, my birthday was last week..2 people texted me happy birthday and I spent the day alone, as none of my local junkie friends bothered to invite me to do anything. Yeah, big surprise I know can you believe it?
I spent almost 35 years of my life, starting at age 15, playing in bands and was always surrounded by fellow musicians and all the various bar archetypes.
Coding came super easy to me and it allowed me to earn very good money while living a lifestyle that had all the trappings of a happy, extroverted kinda life, and I enjoyed it immensely. I felt (and still do) incredibly blessed by the genetic gods to be born at such a time where society valued my native aptitude...I am sure there were periods where it wouldn't have been such a blessing.
Looking back, I see how I was drawn to and used drugs and music as tools to overcome my introvertness, and you know what? They worked very well. But, as they say, what happens when the song ends and the dope runs out?
But this is my dilemma and where it gets nutso...I wonder just how much we truly control the decisions our brain and subconscious make for us. Looking back, I have serious doubts that even if someone had shown me of picture of my bleak life right now, that I would have somehow been able to make different decisions.
Even now, knowing how I should act to prevent this level of isolation, I am unable to do those things consistently enough to make them work and have all but giving up trying.
So yeah..introverted, rude, selfish, disconnected for sure. But also, passionate, informed, and sensitive as well.
That's life I guess.
LOL..i have to chuckle somewhat at the typical experience that this sort of thing is for my life and the irony of it :) Thanks for the offer anyway...it just doesn't seem like its meant to be or whatever and i of course do not want to give out any identifying information.
H-brain will throw up fear of withdrawl, but you can always get on a shorter plane ride and check straight in to a clinic in some town on the other side of the country, get some methadone and taper off... just try not to make new junkie friends.
Good luck.
http://www.methadone.us/methadone-clinics/ http://www.opiateaddictionresource.com/treatment/methadone_c... http://methadoneclinic.com/how-to-find-free-methadone-clinic...
This extrovert/introvert label is used in ways it shouldn't. Two kinds of people hide behind being an introvert: assholes and people afraid of other people, often a mixture of both. Both groups alienate people with their behaviors and thus are lonely, sometimes angry about it, which worsens both traits. They don't want to be, making contact with people exhausting. Instead of addressing the real problem, they get isolated even more or, like you, externalize getting happiness, which I bet Heroin is very good at consistently delivering.
Again: these traits are not fixed. If you think of yourself as unlikable, you will be. If you think people are all stupid (way to generalize), you will alienate other people. If you think other people are dangerous, which you might have had to learn early in your life, you will behave in a way that other people don't find pleasurable and won't choose to be around you. It's painful to think about, so people just say they're introverted.
You can accept that & change, or you can stay where you are. I myself decided to stay in this social coma for 20 years, really angry about it too, being even harder on myself & others. Didn't help. Now people (voluntarily!) call me.
False dichotomy. I love hanging out with people, and get on with a lot of people really well, but I need alone time in between or it becomes a hellish experience. Kind of like how I love being awake, but if I don't sleep regularly then being awake is really horrible.
Then again, extroverts who don't understand this probably think I'm an aloof asshole for not wanting to socialise with strangers all the time.
That leaves out the sizable kind of people who actually are introverts. It strikes me as rather dangerous to take what seems to be a pretty simple observation - people occupy a spectrum from 'enjoying little to no social contact' to 'does not enjoy being alone at all' and we call this introversion/extraversion - and basically arguing that one of the end of the spectrum is 'wrong' and can be fixed. Not to mention the fact that most actual research on the matter seems to indicate that introversion is, at least to some significant degree, innate, and at the very least can be distinguished at such an early age that it might as well be innate.
Honestly, it's not so different in my mind from believing gay people are gay because <insert some self-serving theory> instead of accepting that in lieu of full understand, we should maybe just assume they are actually gay.
Or Christians insisting that non-believers are in denial and even actively rejecting 'the Truth', actively unhappy, and that they have gaping God-shaped hole inside of them.
Or, for that matter, Christians insisting that other Christians are not happy or doing well because they don't have enough faith, are not trying hard enough, or because 'there must be some kind of sin in their life'.
The danger of such statements is that they have massive impact on the group your judging, and that they ultimately can never be fully refuted. What makes it worse is that, in my experience, most 'outliers' - whether gay, autistic, clinically depressed, etc. - already live with a permanent suspicion that they're just not trying hard enough and making excuses.
EDIT: to be clear, I do agree that any of these labels can be used as an excuse, and nothing is 100% fixed. So in context you might be right. I just feel it's important to note that there are many people who are truly introverted, and they should not feel bad or wrong about that.
It's really tough to dig yourself out of a state where you feel depressed, disconnected from society, and I'd guess unwanted. I hope you can though, it sounds like you have a lot to offer.
You also seem very self-aware which helps in most every social encounter.
One is along the lines of what you say, a truly shocking amount of what you might think is free conscious will is actually just machinery deterministically reacting to stimuli. Conversely, it's surprising how plastic that machinery is, it can be formed and reshaped to be wholly different through conscious thought and action.
There's a lot of unscientific woo about what you should do with food to make you healthy and most of it is baseless chatter, but there's pretty strong evidence that there _is_ something there even if we're not sure how to control it. Not just food though... exercise, light, meditation, the people you are around, the smell of the air, and a million other things all have influence over that machinery and manipulating them can manipulate you.
As to friends--I am very lonely. I think I'm friendly, but don't have friends. Part of my problem is I made friends with people much older than myself, and they die, and I am not a extrovert. It seems like all my friends were extroverts. When I was younger, it seemed easier to remain friends with exes, but as I've aged, they moved on, or as one told me, women can't be friends after a certain point in a relationship. If I knew that, I wish I didn't push for intimacy. I look back, and I miss the friend I made in that relationship more than anything else.
I haven't wanted to wake up in years, but I'm still here. Just when I think I've had enough of it, I have days where I feel o.k., not o.k. like in my twenties, but not suicidial.
I know exercise has been mentioned here too much, but light walks have really helped me. I do need to do them daily.
I really don't have any advice, other than hang in there. I do know we are not alone. I wish it was easier for men to find friends.
I live in a major metro area and can't think of food worth leaving the house for when I used to be so into trying new places and love ethnic cuisine. Guess it's depression?
I'm roughly half your age, but I understand, I get it. But don't give up hope.
You can still change, no matter how deep into the darkness you are. You can still be happy. It just takes small steps; the first is to substitute heroin with something less addictive and harmful. It will be difficult, an almost impossible task, but if you have the will to do so, you can. You're cognizant of the fact that you have a problem, so you're already half of the way there.
Socially, it's another matter entirely. There are obligatory communications that you really can't reasonably dodge, like planning family Holidays, or finding a friend to join you to a concert, or calling around to get a decent price on a set of tires.
Then there are the real small-talk situations. Standing in line at the coffee shop, sitting with another parent you've never met waiting for your turn at the parent teach conference, the bored bartender while you're trying to relax the last evening of a business trip... These opportunities have different payoffs that really depend only to you. If you're an extrovert, a conversation with a stranger may be invigorating. And yes, you might learn something valuable, or offer some advice that genuinely helps a stranger. For me, there is simply no payoff. The investment of awkwardness versus the comfort of remaining withdrawn is just not worth it. Once in a while, I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation. But that is a rare moment for me, and I usually end the conversation thinking that the last thing I said for sure came across as weird and they had no clue what I meant... So usually, I want to remain in thought, or distracted by some type of entertainment or doing something that I deem to be productive. Thank God for my iPhone.
I'll satisfy my obligations to society in other ways.
Does being in a good mood mean that you will get more upside to the "investment" of small talk? Are you being optimistic that the conversation will be productive (i.e. "maybe I'll learn something interesting or make an important connection"), or does the act of engaging in small talk yield its own reward, dependent on being in the right mood?
The price to buy in is less when you're in a good mood.
It was definitely a so what situation.
Or, in gaming speak: You're at the center of your minimap, but not at anyone else's.
We have enough of these skills, thank you very much. We just don't like talking about nothing for three hours and we don't like forcing intimate details of our lives into somebody else's throat. If we have nothing to say, we stay silent.
Is it really all about payoffs? It may be true. It just seems sad. I'd rather lie to myself that it's not that.
But I feel awkward trying to talk to a stranger. No payoff. So I generally don't do it.
No, they smile warmly and thank you. You share a laugh. You made their day, they made yours. It's not zero sum. Nobody lost anything. Well, except you, some cash.
I forgot to ask do you ever feel good energy from a stranger and have this amazing interaction even if it lasts 3 minutes? It does happen. I'd hazard to say that the sum total of little interactions and individual energy projection is the gestalt of a place and time. Even a room has a vibe we've all felt. You can tell if a room feels tense, a sidewalk is full of anxious people, that was love I just felt. I'm sure there's a better word for this than gestalt, btw.
I thought for a while to recall, and, well, not really. There have been circumstances where some external situation affected both me and a stranger in some way and we mutually complained or otherwise acknowledged it. It was a connection based on a shared experience, rather than being all that random. Maybe that counts. But you have to be open in order for those more serendipitous instant connections to happen that you enjoy, and I'm just not open. It's an attribute of my Aspergers-induced introversion, I think.
But I'd say we all could put out just a little bit better energy than we do, just a bit, with some effort, maybe it even becomes easier over time. For example, I make a concerted effort to make eye contact and smile at the check out line person no matter how I feel. It seems like a small thing but acknowledging people who pass in and out of our field in any given day, with head up eye level, is where the action is. I try to see people when I'm out and about.
I'm really flying by the seat of my pants on this one, but perhaps it has to do with the variety of people you meet on a given day. The less variety, the more likely the people you meet are like you and the more comfortable you could be in engaging them. A large variety, and you just can't be sure what you're going to get, and the risk that it's a cold shoulder is too high.
More like be there in that moment when an opportunity arises and try to project more good energy into the routine interactions. There's a payoff for that that. It feels good even if it only works sometimes.
It's easier said then done as I'm always tempted to look down, passing through. I practice, fail, fail again then maybe get into the groove better the next day. No big deal. Fail isn't quite the right word as there's no real cost for trying to be a source of good energy even if a lot of people aren't trying.
It's the obvious things such as I'm less likely to experience rudeness from others but some far less obvious changes that seem out of reach of my energy, such as I'm less likely to be cut off in traffic type of bad experience. I'm not sure what if understanding how this process works even matters. It just works consistently.
So this is the only sentence approaching a real argument in the article. And it's not entirely unreasonable, but the author goes straight to words like "antisocial", "rude", "self-indulgent", and "selfish" to describe the act of skipping large gatherings.
I'm just not entirely convinced that introverts are likely to cause the downfall of civilization. Even in the pathological cases of truly isolated individuals, they're really only harming themselves.
But when I'm not doing either of those things, which is most of the time I'm there, I'm drinking, by myself, at the bar, while everybody else there, most of whom I've known for years, has the kind of group interaction that I simply can't be bothered to participate in.
I have introverted friends that have no problem participating in the group! But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6 years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back to my spot at the bar.
If the conversation is actually interesting to me, then I can participate, at least until it shifts to something I could care less about. I thought about trying to care more, but if I start going against my nature, I get drained and want to go home. If I do that too often I start to wonder why I even go there at all. The way I do it, I'm comfortable. I can spend several hours there a few times a week.
Introversion is real. I work to overcome my limitations, but it seems that any success I find is a result of finding workarounds, not actually fixing the problems, if there is indeed any.
My next big push against my introversion will be having small, private dinners at my home with people I care the most for. Perhaps I can get over my group aversion by amping up the comfort level an order of magnitude.
Do you find that it matters how many people are in the conversation? For me, once there are 4 or more other people to follow (assuming they're speaking fluidly rather than slowly and deliberately), it seems like my brainpower is completely consumed just following the dynamics of the interaction, and I have almost nothing left over to process my own thoughts on the topic of conversation. I seriously have no idea how people do it.
No wonder that you do not like typical group conversation. You simply prefer deep conversations. There is nothing wrong with that and there little need to push yourself for group conversations.
Also, I don't need to "recharge" by retreating to solitude, I just find lots of partying, drinking type situations incredible banal and would rather do something else. This is just like getting impatient with any other activity, like watching the shopping channel.
Of course usually I don't say this to people. That would just be rude.
The author.
Unfortunately due to extrovert (and pretend-extrovert) majority in the world there's always an undertone of "this is the right way and everyone else is weird" lingering in the society.
If the majority were introvert we would land up with people bragging on their resume about their thoughtful quiet nature rather than "oh so outgoing and BUBBLY!!".
As Tycho said, yes if I don't speak to you don't be so arrogant as to attribute that to my shyness maybe I just don't give a fuck about you. Not saying that that's always the case, but hey leave some room for that possibility.
How about this, what if every time an extroverted talked loudly and excitedly to me I just turn around and tell everyone "Oh don't mind him he's just really desperate and lonely and just wants some attention.".
See? Instead of assuming that that's your nature I can assume that is your flaw and you are unable to shut up.
That's exactly what extroverts do to introverts when they attribute being quiet to being shy or having social anxiety or being "socially awkward" and all these labels.
That said, it's reasonable to say I tend not to like the banal banter of drunk people. It's probably true that the overall drinking culture is banal but banal is an escape for a few hours for a lot of people. You don't have to join them on that one.
I don't think there's anything suspect about being bored by many conversations. Maybe lots of people are boring to him. Not everyone shares interests.
I was snarky because the parent sounds like a typical, anti-social bordering on obnoxious, engineer who thinks he's above everyone else.
Now, many years later, I understand that I did myself a disservice. I missed many gatherings that I now wished I had attended. I'm sure I missed many connections that I would have enjoyed.
I understand now it's ok to be an introvert but it's not ok to let it control how you deal with people. Not necessarily because you're somehow being less than cordial to people, believe me most people won't miss you, but because you miss out on life's moments and that is your loss and no one else's. Life is too short to miss them and most will not come by again.
But yeah you'll miss a lot of good good moments and opportunities to meet very cool people because you weren't willing to experience discomfort, risk rejection, and weather some boredom and irritation. Just showing up actually is 80% of it. It's true if done consistently there are pretty much guaranteed rewards. It just will suck some of the time and it's easy to then run. Speaking for myself.
I took an "always say 'yes'" approach for awhile. I accepted pretty much every invite I received. Eventually I found myself going out all the time, weekdays and weekends. At least once a week I'd have to schedule two or three events in a single day.
It was exhausting in two ways.
The obvious was that it's a pain to schedule so many things, and the nature of social events means you'll meet more people which is a positive feedback loop for more events.
The other was that my personal growth was being limited. I skipped exercise/sports. I was unable to finish, or sometimes even work on, my personal art/programming projects.
I realized it was a problem, and I no longer feel bad turning down event invites. Whether I am overbooked on events or if I just want to build a clay sculpture, I don't consider it to be selfish. Of course I still like to see my friends, and I still meet new people, but it's definitely not the only part of being a human.
There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind the consequences that follow.
It's like a fuck-you card.
People will blame the college kid for not dressing more professionally.
But suddenly if the college kid becomes Zuckerberg/Jobs people will praise him.
"Oh he just always wears [that hoodie/jeans/tshirt/turtleneck]. He's cool and simple and down-to-earth like that not like all these other stupid materialistic people who buy expensive clothes."
I have met people that are labeled as introverted that are just what he describes: One on one conversations about their behavior, with people they trust, show that they really dislike most people, and will never feel at ease in any group. They are selfish people that don't care about others at all. But there's more to it. For instance, my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly: He'll hide in a corner, covering his ears. Is he selfish? I don't think so. We are doing our best to help him handle such situations, but it'll probably be a struggle for him most of his life.
I also think of my own case: I am a bit of a recluse, but it has nothing to do with not caring about people: I am just painfully aware of the terrible first impression I give, regardless of what I try. It's been described as me seeming a bit 'off' in some fashion, as my non-verbals apparently say terrible things that have nothing to do with what I mean. At the same time, I get to see all that rejection as it happens, making the whole thing exhausting. I do it when I have to, but it's unfun, because it feels absolutely hopeless. It's far easier for me to fix it in smaller gatherings, where I get enough time to override that awful first impression.
On the other side of the coin, I know people that are love large gatherings and social situations because they crave novelty. One example that I got to know pretty well happens to be awesome at fleeting connections: She'll leave a party and half the room thinks they got a great connection, which makes her be seen as a wonderful person in many social circles. But what happens when you look deeper? She is a novelty addict. Travels away from home a lot just to feed this. Her marriage is in shambles, because, of course, she got tired of her husband. Her daughters wonder why she is on the road so much. Friends last her about a year, by the time they are either discarded, or they have run away from the selfishness: People are like chewing gum for her.
Sp when it comes to selfishness, introversion and extroversion, it seems to me that the situation is far more complicated than the article makes it seem, and we should all do our best to take a while before we judge people, as first impressions aren't necessarily correct.
All through my childhood I was labeled as introverted. As an adult, having gone through a lot of self-reflection and self-evaluation, I realize that I have both strong introvert and strong extrovert tendencies -- with many of my strong introvert tendencies being sensory rather than social. I think I'm actually more of an extrovert socially, but I never got that label because of the sensory stuff.
For example: I do fairly well in group settings, as long as they're focused somehow. I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the sporting event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise at the club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music. Big lecture halls in college, churches big and small, and actual concerts are all fine. Things marketed as a "party" usually aren't. I like most people, and have friends from a lot of different segments of society. I just don't like being overwhelmed.
It seems silly to characterize me as "rude" or "selfish" because I would turn down certain types of invitations.
This was quite interesting thanks.
The "contestant" reason was always that no matter what they would be wearing people should judge them from "what's inside."
Well, though luck, people don't do that. They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sure you can continue pretending you have bad manner because you're introvert, but don't expect the rest of the world to understand and adapt to your peculiarity.
That's when I stopped blaming the rest of the world for how it worked, improved my social skills and moved on with my life.
In my opinion, moving up further is not about whether I know the latest framework or how fast I churn out code..it's like you said...
"They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it."
This means more frequent hair cuts, nicer fitting clothes, getting rid of the canvas laptop bag from college.
Even if it doesn't matter, it makes me feel better and confident - which would reflect in how I talk and interact.
The thing is that I end up really glad I went about 90% of the time. So I'm not sure I qualify as an introvert or if I'm just a chicken shit extrovert. Either way, it's a big struggle. I do enjoy alone time a lot, though.
Elaborating on halfway: when my "job" was "be social and go to class all day" and my leisure time was "hang around suburbs with the same crew of friends," I needed a lot of alone time to recharge and I'd be miserable going out.
Now that my job is "write code all day" and my leisure time is "read books and work on music," I feel a heavy need to socialize, and I often enjoy going out.
Just like many things, it's a spectrum, and everyone falls somewhere.
Yeah, the half way between idea works well. I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded. For at least a couple days before anything, I'm anxious, and that usually dissipates once I arrive and get settled. The settled part is grounding.
If I fail to ground successfully or if I flat out don't like being there, then the anxiety can continue the entire time I'm there.
It's exhausting. I can see how someone having some experiences like that might conclude that's how it is. Not necessarily is what I'd say. Get grounded. Accept some fails.
Easy for me to say sitting on my couch blissfully aware that I have no plans until tomorrow.
I agree, at least when I'm in a non-social lifestyle (when I'm living a social "school" lifestyle then I get grumpy and look for ways to leave). I think living in a big city (NYC) "helps", because you have a lot of options available and because the loneliness can be so oppressive that it almost forces you out into some sort of social setting.
Usually it helps me to have someone to go with. Then, (1) I can't bail because they're also depending on me, and (2) it gives me a little safety net to fall back on in case I'm having trouble socializing. That said, I've had great experiences going out alone, but it can be tough to get the conversation started (or tough to convince yourself to start a conversation) unless it's explicitly a meet-and-greet kinda thing.
I personally bailed on my previously-determined weekend plans because I'm still recovering from a cold, and 36 hours of techno would dramatically set back my recovery.
I was hoping for social plans tomorrow and I received an invitation to the beach, so I'm looking forward to that. Gotta get my friendship hours in while it's the weekend, because other than a yet-unplanned date, I've got nothing every day after work next week.
But it's just a fiction, and the truth is you never know until you try. Going in with an open mind or even trying to have fun instead of prejudging the event has a real effect on if I have a good time.
Different people need different things, for me just a little optimism can do wonders.
Yes, absolutely, you're right you never know until try it. I have something coming up that I 100% must go to by design, I'm responsible for it. Anxiety setting in and it's very likely if it weren't for the little trick, I'd talk myself out of going. I'd actively let people down if I don't go to this thing. Maybe that's how I should role from now on be front and center with some responsibility so I can't skip out without being a total asshole. :-)
Note: people flip out with happiness when someone steps up and gets something going for other people. It's not that hard to do it either. Weird that more people don't do it.
But once I get going, I code-switch to "outgoing guy" and I usually have a great time.
Well, until I'm done, and then I'm done. :)
Weed sometimes helps, sometimes hurts, but usually hurts. The weed isn't helpful even if just meeting a couple friends for a beer who know I'm stoned. They aren't stoned so we're in a different space and it's harder to connect, leading to me getting left behind in the conversation. Not intellectually but more emotionally as in why less eye contact with me? I asked about it and sure enough, the answer was what I expected. And these are people who do do it occasionally so even for them they'd rather deal with me not high.
Alcohol usually hurts. The ceremony of having a couple drinks with friends is the drinking together so it's not helpful to be halfway there already. And if it's non-drinking event, see above, same kind of problem. I find too much alcohol to be uncomfortable so I rarely go that route to prepare but I can see how it could seem appealing for people who like it more than I do.
> “Have you ever missed a plane?” she asked. I had not. “Then you can help it. You just care more about yourself than about the needs of others.”
Typical. Feelings always come first, and we make excuses to justify our otherwise unjustifiable actions of irresponsibility.
But we also confuse what the most responsible thing to do actually is. We assume it is to be on time. But that's what other's expect of us. That's being responsible in their eyes. Abiding by these expectations is done because we fear rejection and accusation and failure. This is not being truly responsible. This is being a coward.
The correct responsible response is to simply state you don't want to be there, and not go. State your feelings, because that's who you are. And say so in a polite and graceful manner. Or don't. Just be honest, and spend your time better. That's being responsible.
The only thing excuses do is sustain your incompetence and cowardice. If you need an excuse you always have one. There are millions of reasons why anything is not your fault. But that isn't the issue.
The moment you reject excuses all together is the moment you lose the life vest that has prevented you from swimming. You need to face the water, not reason with it. You need to actually swim and decide to go somewhere, not float around in a flotation device made of excuses and let yourself be bounced around by circumstances.
One thing I have noticed in tech in the past 10 years is that there are more and more people drawn into it who are more extroverted than introverted. This may partially be explained by the increasing appeal of being a geek in today's popular culture/zeitgeist. Being a geek decades ago was not cool. Now, it is almost sort of accepted to be a geek, to the point where some people will try to seem geekier than they really are. Honestly, I don't give a damn about "Doctor Who".
For me, if you really want to "control the conversation" like another commenter said, you don't have to do that. Just take the lead. It is not about being an introvert or extrovert. Be someone who invites people out to do something or asks people if they want to be introduced (and then introduces them - yes, it is not so binary as this can't be an e-introduction v. personal face-to-face introduction). Be more active, less passive.
As I've ranted before, introverts are not always introverts. As Susan Cain talks about in her somewhat-too-popular book called "Introverts", the brilliant Professor Lewin (before he was rightly discredited and tarnished by his sexual harassment problems) proclaimed himself a performer and an introvert. There is no black or white. Everyone has fifty shades of extroversion and introversion in them.
Stop this divide and conquer. Just be yourself. If you don't feel like going outside for three days, just do it. If you feel like social interaction is binge liking your entire facebook feed, go for it.
If to you, you feel it is a net loss to go out to certain social outings, then you have a choice. It can be a net loss, if you are stuck in your head the entire time and thinking 'what do they think about me, what do they think about me' the entire time like a skipping CD. It is all in your head. We all make stories about the world to provide 'evidence' that the world is like X. However, it seems to be, through talking with my extrovert friends, that they don't even have that beat poetry selfish mantra in their head - they just talk to people and find out what that other person is like. Talk to that cute girl or cute guy or 'they'.
And yes... Sometimes the introversion of some people is just about a sick selfishness behavior. Why thinking you feelings is better and superior to others? Why criticism about the bad English of some ones instead try its meaning? Know a language, like Mathematics or Greek is just about opportunities, is not about be smart.
Actually, what you are trying really say each selfishly content whose are you writing in the internet? Why are we trying so hard to just confirm our existing hurting the others? Where is the fun about that? I just don't understand it. :(
This really makes me sad. Thinking about why some people just don't thinks the reason of your "random" feelings and the horrible reasons to hurt the lifestyle of others to justify your own dementia.
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
preferably to the temple.
What would it take to shift a website's tone? What factors, both technical/website-related and people-related, determine how the tone comes across? Food for thought.
Read the heavily greyed comments and turn on showing dead comments. Sometimes there is humour in there!
Karma-sensitive people will adjust their behaviour and stop being funny though, amplifying the effect
This part stuck out . Outside of social situations, economically speaking it seems like the introverts are in control of most of society. It is a good trade-off between making a lot of money and being successful as measured by prestige, vs. being extroverted and less successful? I think so.
I (41/m) used to think I was introvert but now a think I have a bad case of attention deficit syndrome: I always need to do multiple things or I zone out. I am a steaming social animal: I go to parties, business meetings, friday drinks but a few minutes in I need to get my phone and do work. I just cannot help myself: when someone is talking to me I hear everything they say, I respond and have intelligent discourse but during that I am also talking with 5 people on Wechat, thinking up fixes for sites/apps and adding notes in Teamwork. Some people find it rude but when you know me you know it is not so. It was very good for me to work in China for a bit: here everyone sits typing in their phone while talking. And it is, even in meetings with very large companies, normal to pick up your phone and look something up you are not sure about. That is how it is supposed to be: go to a meeting with a bank in London and you have to know every fact by heart because people will pause and look at you when you pick up your phone... What madness is that: either I say I do not know or am not sure and delay matters we are discussing to a follow up or I pick my phone up and Google it?
A little empathy anyone? Like being genuinely interested in the people around you? Like having fun by listening to new stuff...
I see a lot of depressed people around there :(
My son and I are actually deeply empathetic actually, when people describe injuries I feel it with them, feelings of loss hit me hard as well. But keep all the noise in my head at bay while maintaining conversation for long periods is tiring.
It's hard to understand if you didn't experience it, but something that is fun in one circumstance may be very hard in another.
Imagine eating a cup of ice cream and eating a ton of ice cream. If you already ate all ice cream you wanted, and then all you could, and feel completely bloated and full, and somebody comes to you and says "why don't you eat a little ice cream? I made it myself, it's delicious!" what would be your reaction? What if that person insists, saying "come on, ice cream is fun! Please eat! Do you really hate me that much? Am I that bad a cook? You know, dude, you're really rude!"
It's not depression - just as not wanting more ice cream doesn't mean person hates ice cream in general or is sick or didn't enjoy the ice cream they had before. It's just that they had enough and don't want it anymore. Maybe they'd want more tomorrow. But not right now.
The thing is that for us, interacting with other people is draining so when you see that from that perspective you'd prefer to spend that sociable time for more important/interesting things.
http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-j...
So I took up on cooking and invite people to dinners at my house (the largest was 45 people). People are more relaxed in a home cooked dinner and they tend to like you.
The question the author is asking, given the above, is: where is the line between introversion and just being selfish? And does she cross it and then justify her selfishness as introversion?
You can be both extraverted and rude too. An extravert should excuse their rude outward behavior on being an extravert.
Am I rude, or just introvert?
Categorizing people is like trying to square the circle. You're bound to get it wrong and if you truly belief you've succeeded then you are under a delusion.
Personality traits are nothing but abstractions. Abstractions generally can be useful. For instance, when it comes to programming or engineering. But for stuff like personality traits they are not healthy imho.
I am not big into Christianity but I like how it says in the bible that a.) god made us in his image and b.) you shouldn't have an image of god. Maybe, whoever wrote this, was onto something.
Either way, you can call that rude and selfish, I call it a wise way to spend my limited resources.
So what about when she says: "I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function"?
I think from that single line that she was actually being rude.
Frankly, this reads, to me, like telling a homeless person to get a job.
That said, it's interesting to note that for most of recorded history, the #1 recommendation to someone in cubano's position would be to join the locally-favored religion. Without that option -- as objectively bogus as it is -- the chances of getting his/her life back on track may be lower than they historically have been.
I have a relative that completed the Narconon program in Melbourne.
What? I haven't heard that one before.