Comment by tbirdz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by tbirdz | Hacker News Reader

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Thanks Pieter!

I've been interested in that optimistic merging idea of yours for a while now, but I've never had the courage to pull the trigger on it anywhere myself.

I had a few questions about it though. The process seems to work by moving the code review portion after the merge instead of doing it before the merge. So instead of sitting in a review queue, the code goes live, and if there's any problems the code is removed. I was wondering if this is really that much better from the contributer's POV. Sure it's discouraging if they submit a patch and have it ignored, but it must be even more discouraging to submit a patch, have it accepted, and later have it removed because it wasn't good enough.

Also, I know the incremental patch style is the style for OM, but is there any way to do large sweeping changes, other than forking the project or trying to break it into a series of incremental changes?

How well does OM scale with number of contributors? Have you any experience with very low numbers of contributors (where I think you could potentially have bad patches sit in the repo for an excessive period until they are removed), or with very, very large numbers of contributors?

Really though, all the ZeroMQ RFCs are great. If any of you are doing some C programming, I'd highly recommend checking out ZeroMQ's CLASS C style guide: https://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:21/CLASS

Like any radical shift in technique, it's best to try on a small project. It takes a while to get the hang of it. I'll answer your questions...

- It is really seldom that a patch is reverted (that a patch is removed). As in, it only happens in exceptional cases, when someone has made an obviously toxic patch by accident on on purpose. It's far easier to move forwards with improvements to the patch. We encourage people to do this rather than provide opinions on the code in writing. What this does is interesting: it brings others in the project into the work, and creates instant mentor-mentee hookups. We see this really often and it is a wonderful thing. You make a patch, it's merged, someone sends a patch on your patch and explains why, and suddenly you have someone in the project who knows that area and can teach you.

- Large sweeping changes are sometimes the simplest way to e.g. refactor some code. It's usually a Really Bad Idea to make functional changes at the same time. It also depends a lot on the language. I'd disrecommend large sweeping changes to a C project, absolutely. The risk of introducing multiple bugs is just too high. In a scripted language, far less risk, and so it's safer. In general, functional changes appear to work better as many small testable steps, and refactoring can work as a single mass change.

- OM scales really well. It needs 2+ people in the project. After that, the limits are elsewhere. Projects with hundreds of contributors are probably too large in terms of internal structure. It means you get ad-hoc pseudo-projects inside a single repository which means poor internal contracts, etc. I'd say a project with more than 7-10 active contributors at any time is getting too large. IME a network of small projects works far better than larger monolithic projects.

- I use OM (the C4 protocol) on all projects, whether they are just starting (my first act is then to call for co-maintainers), or have been around for ages (like the libzmq C++ core library, with hundreds of contributors). We've never seen an issue of scale.

Cheers!

Similar to https://github.com/illacceptanything/illacceptanything ?

;-)

No, quite different. There are strong rules about what constitutes a valid patch. Probably stronger than in most projects.

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