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Comment by etherael | Hacker News Reader

I like the irony of a media company from the most religious civilisation currently existing calling Apple a cult. At the same time, I can't disagree.

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That's a guilt-by-association argument that doesn't really hold water.

In its early days Aljazeera was known for broadcasting dissenting views and was perceived as more objective than state run Middle Eastern media entities. Many of its staff were former BBC. Aljazeer was shut down by the Saudi government because it failed to stick with the party line. It had to relocate to Qatar as a result, where it seems to enjoy more independence.

Sources: Control Room (documentary about Aljazeera); Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aljazeera]

Yes, when Aljazeera first began broadcasting the American press had nothing but praise for them. It was only when they refused to parrot the party line on Iraq and 9/11 that the media turned against Aljazeera.

I'm finding it really interesting that people are taking my original statement as an attack on Al Jazeera... All I said was it's a media company that exists within the most religious civilisation in the world. If I were to point out that MSNBC is a media company that exists within the most materialistic civilisation in the world, would this be equally considered as an attack?

Curious stuff.

"the most religious civilisation in the world"

You keep saying that, buy you still haven't given any basis for it.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1245743

Have you actually ever watched Al Jazeera, or are you just repeating the blather from Fox News? It's one of the most well rounded international news outlets around.

That doesn't discount my original statement does it? Sincere question, it is a media company and it exists within the structure of the most religious civilisation currently in existence?

For the record, I don't watch fox news.

Qatar is one of the most liberal Muslim countries in the middle east, and Al Jazeera operates with great autonomy. What exactly do you mean by "exists within the structure of...", and why would that in any way be relevant?

Relevant in the same sense that existance within the structure of a communist country qualifies a person for understanding what is par for the course within a communist country. Or existance within a fascist country qualifies a person for understanding what is par for the course within a fascist country.

I must admit I'm quite baffled at the hair trigger reactions here, I wasn't trying to make anything approaching a controversial statement, saying; these guys ought to know what fanatical adherence to religious principles ought to look like, I don't get why that's debatable.

Agree or disagree, even the most rabid Apple haters must agree that this is not a "new phenomenon." Help me understand why the word "hacker" and/or "news" applies here?

I find it useful from the perspective of analysing a phenomenon that as you mention is intimately familiar, but from an extremely different perspective than I am accustomed to. Not just outside the hacker community, but outside the structure of western civilisation. Without attempting to be too critical; more specifically from the perspective of a civilisation intimately familiar with fanatical religious behaviour from an every day perspective.

I wouldn't have been able to predict what the kind of analysis such an organisation would come up with based on this familiar part of our landscape. Within that context I find it quite interesting.

I'm not sure you can qualify this as a strictly non-western perspective, given that the article is based mainly on the opinions of an Apple employee, a Utahan consumer psychology professor, and a guy who wrote the books "Cult of Mac" and "Cult of iPod". Those last two people would probably have written the article themselves, given half a chance.

Point taken, but the fact that the creator of the story made these the talking points says something in itself.

Heh... A one "Andrew Wander"? Not to pre-judge, but I'm not sure his opinion is representative of the Islamic world. :)

http://www.reprieve.org.uk/andrewwander

Well well, I'll know to dig deeper next time! Thanks very much for the pointer.

religious civilisation != cult.

in other words, it's ironic, but only in the alanis morissette way.

The only difference between a "cult" and any other religion is numbers. Rather like how Hobbes pointed out that the only difference between superstition and religion is that the latter is publically endorsed.

I'd dispute the distinction, witness how quickly just the mention of a civilisation as "most religious" is taken as an attack upon that civilisation.

Once upon a time perhaps the difference between a religion and a cult was that a cult was a religion without the good press, but the reaction to even characterising a thing as a religion being classed as an attack by so many people seemingly subconsciously, it seems that they're both negative labels now.

Can't say it particularly bothers me personally, quite the contrary.

"from the most religious civilisation currently existing"

That's baseless nonsense.

Honest question, is it really? In which sense do the nations which make up modern Middle Eastern civilisation not match with the description "the most religious civilisation currently in existence".

Give me an exhaustive list of precisely which nations you consider to make up the Middle East, and a rigorous definition of "civilization", and I'll see what I can do.

You made the statement and provided no basis for it, which I called you on, and you want me to explain why your statement is incorrect? Have you been to the Middle East? Do you have experience or evidence to back your claim that they are what you say?

Side note: there aren't separate civilizations anymore -- it's human civilization, and maybe you can separate out 'Middle Eastern' culture, but that's a very broad term and your statement still doesn't hold up.

List of countries; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east#Traditional_definit...

Average rate of atheism;

turkey 3%

bahrain N/A assumes 0 maximum possible of 9.8% (other)

kuwait N/A assumes 0 maximum possible rate of 5% (non islamic)

oman N/A assumes 0 less than 5% (non islamic)

qatar N/A assumes 0 max possible 22.5% (other)

saudi arabia atheism expressly illegal

UAE N/A assumes 0 max possible 15 (other)

yemen n/A assumes 0 max possible 1 (other)

Gaza strip 0

iraq N/a assumes 0 max possible 3 (other)

israel 15-37 (split @ 26% :/)

Jordan N/A assumes 0 max possible 2 (other)

Lebanon N/A assumes 0 max possible 5 (other)

Syria 0 (other)

West Bank N/A assumes 0 max possible 8 (other)

Iran N/A assumes 0 max possible 2 (other)

Cyprus 2%

Egypt < 1%

18 countries

total 3 + 26 + 2 + 1 = 32 / 18 = 1.7%

Excuse uberfast formatting, methodology, just check the wikipedia entries then check the atheism rates, combination of the wiki entries on a per country basis + the religion in x articles + demographics of atheism. Compare 1.7% with the figures for a wide variety of western nations referenced at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Distrib....

I'm kind of baffled by the idea that this is controversial.

Why is everyone giving him such a hard time? Ok, he should have used a word other than 'civilization', but is it really that controversial/does it need that much proof to state that the Middle East is the region where religion plays a bigger part in people's lives than elsewhere in the world? Without looking at specific places/occasions, I agreed with the statement right away. C'mon, if he had said that Africa was the poorest region in the world, would everyone be asking for proof?

I'm kind of pleased with the apparent answer, because "religious" has taken on such a negative connotation that it's immediately taken as an attack.

I'm a big boy, I can take it. :)

I think that's the point, not the irony: "we believe in an actual deity who does various things, whereas elite Westerners believe in a manufacturer of gadgets."

At least I can prove, to a reasonable level of satisfaction, the existence of Apple.

Also, they've never told me to kill anybody.

I can prove, to a reasonable level of satisfaction, the existence of Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad.

The question is whether we believe what they say (or have said).

Also, they've never told me to kill anybody.

I'm not interested in whether the historical Jesus, Moses or Muhammad existed, I'm interested in the much more dubious existence of their boss.

And if Muhammad never told you to kill anybody, he sure wrote a lot of things (or alternatively, transcribed a lot of things dictated by Allah) which are awfully easy to interpret that way: http://www.yoel.info/koranwarpassages.htm . Apple, on the other hand, tends to steer well clear of telling anybody to kill anybody, as far as I know.

Unless you can prove the existence of a Jesus who has been resurrected, a Moses who walked on the sea or a Muhamad who rode a flying horse to Heaven, I doubt your proof would satisfy most people.

Those are things that people said that Jesus/Moses/Muhammad did, and consequentially not what I'm claiming proof for.

My claim is only that they existed. Whether we believe what they said, or what other people say about them, is another question entirely.

Going back to the original point: "At least I can prove, to a reasonable level of satisfaction, the existence of Apple."

No one is arguing Apple's existence, the debate is whether what Apple says and what is said about Apple is true.

The Bible says Jesus was resurrected. Apple says iPad is magical. Pundits say iPad is the future of computing. Is it true? I don't know. But it's all the same kind of mysticism.

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