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The end result you describe isn't much different than a number of 4 year undergraduate degrees, PhDs or masters programs (all at "good" colleges).

The best advice I ever received was to not pursue a Ph.D. in philosophy.

It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student.

>The end result you describe isn't much different than a number of 4 year undergraduate degrees, PhDs or masters programs (all at "good" colleges).

The difference is that the percentage of people with that negative end result is MUCH higher. Looking at stats like the default rate for students at for-profits vs non-profits is one indicator.

>It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student.

There is definitely some truth in this. HOWEVER, a big difference is that in many cases the interests of the department and the student are more aligned at non-profits than for-profits. The most obvious example is completion/graduation rates. At least at the undergraduate and masters level, there is a strong incentive to select students that are LIKELY to graduate from the program. Bringing in woefully underprepared students who have little chance of finishing the degree seems to be strongly discouraged at the undergraduate and masters level. I cannot speak for the PhD level, since I have little experience in that area.

Contrast that with stories about MULTIPLE for-profit colleges going so far as to target the homeless for recruitment into their universities. In some cases they went so far as recruiting people who DID NOT OWN A COMPUTER to sign up for online degree programs. Since virtually all Americans (regardless of credit score) qualify for up to $20K in loans per year (with a cap of about $180K total), a students ability (or lack there of) to complete the program is irrelevant as long as the money keeps flowing in.

> At least at the undergraduate and masters level, there is a strong incentive to select students that are LIKELY to graduate from the program.

Is there? It affects their attrition rate, but I am not sure that is a big factor in which schools students choose. It seems to be based on things like facilities, "vibe", majors available, prestige, quality of education. A high attrition rate need not even suggest a low prestige or quality of education: in many graduate programs, almost the opposite is true.

I went to a very expensive private but nonprofit Christian school for undergrad. They accepted anyone, and their attrition rate was abysmally high (although the education quality was fine). The attrition rate didn't matter at all to their marketing, as parents sent their kids there for different reasons. In fact, those kids who dropped out after 1-2 years were big moneymakers, as they only took gen ed classes that are cheapest to staff.

For PhDs, attrition is much more discouraged, at least economically (I'm in bio), because PIs/advisors pick students with the understanding that their first 1-3 years they will be useless in research and only start "paying off" near the end. This is why at the higher-tier graduate schools, there is a big attrition at the general exam (1.5 years in) and it's very low afterwards. In lower-tier programs there is low attrition throughout. And of course, many grad programs pay stipends, so those programs lose money with no compensation if someone drops out. Very different incentive structure than programs where the student pays tuition.

A couple differences between the two:

a. A diploma from a public university carries a certain level of prestige, unlike a for-profit college diploma, which is more of a red flag when looking through resumes.

b. The cost of that diploma will be, on average, much higher from a for profit college. This issue gets compounded by the fact that people applying to these for-profit colleges are, on average, of lower income brackets and also going back to point A, those diplomas don't hold the same prestige. So you are charging poorer people more for something worth less.

As to your second point, go take a tour of a public university and then a for-profit university and you will see the difference between the application process. The for-profit university will feel like your joining a 24 hour fitness, both in the sleazy sales tactics and how much pressure they will put on you to sign up.

A third difference is that credits you earn from an accredited university are transferable, whereas those you earn from many of these degree mills aren't.

"It's wrong to think that departments at not-for-profit schools don't have a marketing incentive that is (at best) indifferent to the best interests of the student."

You're right, so let's start cutting off the federal loans spigot to them next.

Agree 1000%. We need to get back to where students can pay for their own education with a part-time job and graduate debt-free. If the loans are cut off, colleges will have to cut their administrative staff and go back to shitty dorms, vs the luxury apartments that kids are living in now.

Do those statistics adjust for the quality of incoming students? That is, would the same student do worse at a for-profit college than a usual university (taking into account expected costs and outcomes)?

You know that's an interesting thought. That its not the quality of the education, but the quality of the student. Similar to how prestigious schools do better just because they filter for better students.

This is the dark truth about education that no one likes to talk about. It's almost all about what happens in the home. What happens at school is irrelevant by comparison.

On the other hand:

>Person does terrible in high school,doesn't get into a good college because they don't have the drive or commitment to get good grades.

That was me

>They go to community college

That was me

>surprise, they again get terrible grades and stop going

Nope, that was not me. I got a 4.0 in communnity college

>Anyways, these sales people will constantly pester you trying to get you to signup and take out huge loans because for some reason we think that it's ok to lend someone with terrible credit $50K+ in worthless education.

Essentially, that was also me. I was utterly convinced and sold that going to a high ranking university was the best thing for me

>The end result is either them regretting their decision or trying to justify it with some bullshit about it being a good learning experience or something of the sort.

Back to that being me again

>You can get a much better education for cheaper at a community college.

My community college education was mostly useless except for a few classes: 2 science classes (although one of the profs had a lawsuit with the school which affected our course quality), 1 course in calc, and 1 course in sociology/economics with a particularly good professor. A lot of the courses taught me either stuff I already knew, could learn easily with freely available resources online, or stuff that wasn't true or had no understandable merit.

TL;DR I didn't do my homework in high school. I got a job at a ski resort out of high school, then went to community college, got a 4.0, went to a high ranking university, ended up unemployed with a 50k+ education. Granted, I graduated during the recession, but this exact thing can happen to you if you are going to good universities as well.

I would rather have skipped community college and uni, spent the money on skiing in Switzerland and taught myself maths and programming while continuing to work in ski resorts and something that involved a summer hobby of mine like mountain biking, alpine hiking, long distance running or with video games.

I went to a community college too. I was told in the first few weeks, most of you will drop out, and not transfer. This tenured Ph.d was quite a jerk, but he was right.

I transferred to a four year university, and got that rediculious degree. I look back, and there was so much b.s., involved in getting that degree, I'm suprised I finished.

I finished because it was better than working full time. I had this beautiful, competitive girlfriend who I just couldn't be with anyone without a degree. I'll never forget the look on her face when she asked me, "How do you feel about getting a degree?" Honestly Ingrid(yes, unbelievable blond) it was a waste of time. In four years, I had maybe eight classes what I really felt were worth the money.

If I was to do it over again, I would have picked a degree I was interested in. I picked business administration . I thought it was the safe choice. I was wrong.

I went to graduate school for a year, and dropped out due to health problems, and I didn't believe the mantra they were spewing. I did pay back that 10 grand. I'm glad I payed it back because I need to file a chapter 7 soon.

(If anyone currently going to a community college reads this, hang in there. It will get depressing. Your buddies will fill your head with stories about epic parties at their school. Just finish those general education transfer courses. I actually had a great time in CC. In Anatony, and Physiology classes, I dated a lot. It was loaded with nursing students.)

Also, I have the feeling that a "great experience" is all relative.

I went to a public engineering school in France, for which the student has virtually nothing to pay, and could secure a job in ~ 2 months after graduation without trying very hard (I did an interview in two companies). I was debt free... all my life. I'm not even talking about a prestigious Grande École, just your random everyday engineering school, which you can find in pretty much every region (with often several different schools in big cities). An Engineering Degree is equivalent to a Master’s Degree, and especially well suited to work in ... engineering. There certainly also are private engineering schools, which some of them maybe are less selective or slightly more recognized, but they are monitored by the state in order for the diploma they deliver to have an official value, and they are still far less expensive than private schools in the USA.

Well, there also are unrecognized for-profit schools with unrecognized (officially) diploma, or even with funny teaching setups (students teach each others...) but I'm not sure they attract a lot of people. Given they tend to concentrate on only technical and practical stuff, its probably even less useful to go there nowadays.

To complete the picture, most people who follow higher education studies in France actually go to the Public University (and not engineering schools) and it is far less selective, so the attrition the first years is quite big - and also it can be less easy to find a job depending on the degree you get and your domain. However, the public university is also obviously virtually free for students (regardless of the prepared degree), and talented students also have usually no pb finding jobs (and at least no insane debt :)

I signed up for computer learning center the month they went bankrupt. After 3 weeks of classes, I showed up and they were wheeling furniture out the front door. Dodged a bullet, there.

Do you have any sources for your statistical statement in the beginning of your comment?

NYTimes: "Report Finds Low Graduation Rates at For-Profit Colleges" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/education/24colleges.html?...

Having also worked in a state's higher education commission, I can that for-profit colleges were consistently two to three times more expensive than publicly-funded 4-year universities, even when accounting for room and board (which for-profit colleges don't offer, as a rule). They also lost the ability to be disbursed student loan funds due to not meeting minimum employment rates among graduates.

There's a middle ground between your statement and the experience the fellow above had. I'd prefer a good community college with a career counselor that pushes you to make the necessary steps toward employment after graduation.

oh let us be honest here, graduation rates pretty much suck across the board at colleges and are nothing to be proud of. For profits just got to take the rap because they were easy to demagogue and a few cherry picked examples were truly bad.

but on a whole, even state and private (non profit - now there is the real crime - the non profit colleges) have nothing to brag about https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_326.10.a...