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Comment by Jack000 | Hacker News Reader

As a tourist my immediate impression is that the infrastructure is quite old compared to other world cities (why are the subways so hot?) and the touristy areas are a lot dirtier than I would have expected. There are also some NY-isms that I haven't seen in other American cities (terror alert levels, garbage bags piled up on sidewalks, ubiquitous taxies, tourists literally everywhere)

I like how it's basically a microcosm of the entire world, and you can reach all of it without a car, but I'm not sure it's worth the inconveniences plus 3x cost of living.

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I disagree. Even though the infrastructure is old, the public transportation in Manhattan is leagues better than most other American cities, considering what you can access. Especially the bay area.

Living in the NYC area is also much cheaper even before figuring for car ownership costs.

Living in NYC isn't cheap, and unlike other cities, the housing quality is old and terrible.

For a tiny studio in a shabby 100 year old prewar walkup tenement building in Manhattan, you're looking at a minimum of $2,000/month. Most people pay $1,400+/month to live in old converted apartments (ie. putting up a wall to turn the living room into another bedroom) with roommates, and often the bedrooms are too small to even have room for a desk, and the window faces directly into another building (if there even is a window). In these buildings you're not going to have AC (meaning you need to buy a window AC unit), a dishwasher, trash compactor, elevator, and all the other luxuries we take for granted anywhere else in the modern world. I spent 3 years in one of these buildings, and the apartment was perpetually too hot (even in the winter), and there was nothing I could do because heat in the unit was not controllable. Apparently this is fairly normal in these buildings.

If you want to live anywhere nice and somewhat modern that isn't a dump, you're looking at a minimum of $3,000/month for a studio, $4,000/month for a 1BR, etc.

And want to buy a place? You're looking at a minimum of $500k for any studio that isn't a total piece of crap, and they're going to want a 20% down payment. And who wants to raise a family in a studio?

I live in a 3BR which is currently around $2.5k/month in beautiful Brooklyn just minutes from the A, C, and G trains. Next week I'll hear back as to whether or not I also have a $1k/mo studio with yard in a well-kept brownstone at the belt of Morningside Park. Most of my friends with studios pay around $1.5k to be in either newly renovated units in not-so-hot areas (upper reaches of Harlem for example) or tiny (200 sq ft) and run down units in more hot areas such as the East Village. None of these are rent controlled or stabilized. Your numbers are the worst case– maybe what you should budget for coming from out of town and looking for a first place, but certainly not the norm if you're looking on a budget. A quick search just now shows at least a couple good listings in the $2400-2900 range for 2BR in the East Village. In my opinion the two big takeaways from these discussions are that (1) New York is what you make of it and (2) New York, due in no small part to its transit system, is bigger than just downtown or uptown Manhattan. I've never had the amenities you listed even growing up so it's likely I don't appreciate them in the same way but there's plenty of other things the city offers to make up for it.

You're minutes from the A,C, and G, but how long is your commute to Manhattan (and where in Manhattan)? How reliable are those trains (eg. on the weekends)? Is it safe at night? Mind if I ask where in Brooklyn? (I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just genuinely curious because I'm actually looking for a place right now)

Sure you can live in Harlem for cheap, but you're a bit removed and it doesn't exactly feel safe. These days it's gotten better, but I still wouldn't recommend a woman walk alone there at night. Living in what feels like a giant housing project isn't exactly what I consider the desirable "Manhattan" experience.

Mind linking me some of those good listings? I spent the last 3 years in the East Village, most apartments there in that price range are subpar by modern day standards. They're going to be obviously converted apartments with absurdly small bedrooms, no living room area, odd layouts, broker's fees (10-15% of the first year's rent), 5th floor walkups, Avenue C, etc. I'm not saying that deals don't exist, but they are very hard to come by.

Here's a StreetEasy search for 2BRs under $3,000 without broker's fees - I'm not tempted to snag any of these: http://streeteasy.com/for-rent/nyc/price:-3000%7Cbeds%3E=2%7...

I'm not too familiar with deep Brooklyn, but I know you can find alright studios there for $1,200/person. I'm just not sure if the tradeoff of increased commute and reduced safety due to living amongst poverty is worth it. But I'd love to be shown otherwise.

I'm in the UK and my image of NY is from the Netflix "Daredevil" show.

It amazes me the times I've seen one of the characters, Karen Page (attractive blonde white woman) just part company with another character at night and walk home. The streets look almost deserted except the occaisonal walker and cab. I thought it might be just fiction but another part of me thought that NY might be safer given the strictness of the police, zero-tolerance policy and increasing gentrification.

Probably they're living near the Hoyt-Schemerhorn station in downtown Brooklyn. The A/C are good, reliable trains that offer a quick commute to a large number of jobs in Lower Manhattan. And it's absolutely in a safe neighborhood.

As for your search, you need to include apartments with broker fees. That's just a reality of the real estate market in NYC. There are many cases where paying the fee is worthwhile.

Whats wrong with a walk up? Stairs certainly aren't unique to NYC. Also what is wrong with old? . Pre-war buildings are actually more desirable as pre-war buildings spared little expenses with both construction and materials. In a pre-war building you will have plaster walls and poured-concrete floors which means much less noise or hearing your neighbor. This is opposed to post war in which you will have sheetrock walls. Pre-war buildings will also get you character like high ceilings, stamped tin ceilings, plate rails, tiled hallways, wood reliefs. Buying an AC unit isn't a big deal, you buy it and have it for 10 years.

Its completely possible to live in a one bedroom that is not a dump for less than $4k a month. There is no absolute minimum as you state. Lastly, "old" does not necessarily imply bad or dumpy. You are correct if you want to live in a brand new one bedroom with all "mod cons" - heated floors, stainless steel appliances, central AC, an Amazon locker etc., it is going to cost you significantly more. But you can also get that experience as you imply just about everywhere else in the world. These places also tend to have less in the way of character. Some people don't want that.

Walkups are fine if you're on the first three floors. I spent 3 years in 5th floor walkups (East Village, Upper West Side, Morningside Heights). You never get used to that.

I guess age itself isn't the issue, it's the quality of the unit, and most old pre-war walkup units have terrible quality by modern standards. Those cool old buildings with "character" you speak of - with the super high ceilings and all that - you're not going to find those in Manhattan (and if you do, they are absurdly expensive). Most of the old buildings in Manhattan are former tenement buildings. None of the 3 walkups I lived in had high ceilings or any of those charms. They were just small, perpetually dirty, had tiny windows facing directly into other buildings, nasty bathrooms, disgusting building common areas, etc. I've lived in prewar and modern buildings, and can't attest to any noise insulation advantages in prewar. If living in a tenement like a poor immigrant from 100 years ago is considered having "character", then I don't want character.

Go outside of NYC, and you realize that most people live in modern buildings with central air and large windows. In NYC, those are a luxury.

Personally the thing I like most about newer buildings are the large floor-to-ceiling windows. The sparse tiny windows in prewar buildings are just depressing (though the prewar unit I lived at in the Upper West Side did have nice windows).

I'm curious where did you end up moving to? It sounds like you found a modern place? Did you move out of the city?

So after I let my 3 year lease expire, I subletted this small but amazing place in Gramercy for one month - 16th floor, doorman, balcony, laundry in basement - for $1,900 all-in (they're paying $2,125/person + utilities, 1BR converted into 2BR, but still a living room area). Didn't want to leave, but had no choice due to the tenant returning. (if you want to see clips of it, I have a Youtube channel in my profile where I post stupid videos)

Now I'm subletting a modern condo (built in 2008) in Greenpoint, Brooklyn for $60/night that looks like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fmxqof9kfivrpq2/2016-09-02%2009.16... . 2 bedroom 2 bathroom, just under 1,000 square feet. It's by far the most beautiful apartment I've ever stayed at, but unfortunately my bedroom doesn't have a usable desk - which I've now come to realize is absolutely mandatory. Thus I'm now searching for another sublet under $70/night with a nice desk in the bedroom - and if it's in deep Brooklyn, it better be in a modern renovated apartment. This is actually not as easy to find as I thought.

The main reason I'm subletting is because I want to try out this digital nomad thing, and thus want the flexibility of not being tied down to a lease.

My wife and I live in an enormous 2-bedroom a block from four subway lines, in Long Island City. We pay $2,000/month for that (with various amenities included). A friend of ours who lives a block away with another couple pays $3,000/month for a house with an enormous backyard. And we're not outliers by any means. My point being, if you live in Brooklyn or Queens, and you're willing to do a bit of looking, you can find a perfectly suitable place for far less than the price points you mentioned.

What sort of amenities are included? Is this a walkup?

How did you find your deal, and mind if I ask what building you're in (if it's a high-rise)? I'm actually looking into that area right now, and haven't been able to find any deals like that.

It's a walkup in a pre-war building, not a high-rise. We're on 46th road; we found it through a friend who was giving the place up (it seems like that's a common theme for the better apartments people land). The problem with LIC right now is that those high-rise luxury condos along the water are dominating the rental discussion in the neighborhood; there are definitely deals to be found on the "landward" side of Vernon Blvd, but the closer you get to the water, the worse the rent gets.

My wife and I say that, if we have to move, we'll go deeper along the 7 line into Queens or up into Astoria. That's where the best rent-to-space-ratio seems to be at the moment; LIC still has some good ones, but they're further and fewer between as rich people realize how close we are to Manhattan and move in greater numbers.

Our amenities are very much off-the-books. Nothing like a doorman or in-house gym. We have a super who does everything, a couple of laundry machines in basement, etc. :)

I think its pretty funny that the word 'enormous' is actually being applied to a two-bedroom.

Outside of the cities and expensive suburbs, most people get a 3 bedroom house at a minimum, and people paying $2000 a month will get a 4 or 5 bedroom.

The amount of money it costs to live in NYC compared to somewhere like salt lake or Denver, you could buy a new car every year. There is no chance it's cheaper.

Median rent among my colleagues is around $1.3k. (Most of us live with roommates.)

Median commute time to work (almost none of us live in Manhattan) is about 30-40 minutes. No one owns a car.

I'm lucky to be living alone in Jersey in a $1.2k studio with a 35-minute commute to work. I consider this lucky, but very doable with planning.

How does this compare to rates in, say, the bay area? Or Denver?

In Denver you can live with a roommate in the same conditions as NYC or the bay for maybe $500. The difference between those two is about $700/mo. That car payment will get you an amazing car or a new lower end car every 2 years or so.

But I'd have to use a car to get around. AAA’s 2015 Your Driving Costs study lists the average monthly ownership cost of a car at $725 per month. Plus there's the time cost: I can't read a book in the car, but I could on the train.

Oh god, those garbage bags. I remember a few winters ago, our street got clobbered on garbage day and giant piles of old garbage bags sat underneath a layer of snow for about a month. When the feet of snow covering the garbage bags finally started to melt we had a nice little bubbling stream of garbage downhill for a few days...

New York had one of the first subway systems in the world. It's not air conditioned because they didn't have AC at the turn of the 20th century. The street grid was also designed without alleys, hence the trash bags.

Upper West Sider here: Subway cars of course have AC. Older cars sometimes break AC but the newer ones have backup compressors so that doesn't happen.

I do think they could at least have some high speed fans in parts of the subway stations, esp. for the elderly who don't tolerate heat as well as others.

New York City is a great place to be old and either healthy or rich. Otherwise, you run into problems not addressed in the article - such as the tremendous lack of handicapped access in the subways.

We lived at 145th on the ABCD line. There's precisely one escalator that takes you from the lowest platform to the mezzanine, skipping the mid-level platform in between. Then there are stairs to get to street-level. There are no elevators. So when my father, in his 70s, came to visit us, he had a hell of a time getting down the stairs. We ended up specifically planning trips so that we would arrive on the lower platform, so we could take the escalator.

All the walking does have health benefits, but if you're not capable of it, you better live near some accessible stations, or you end up being reliant on cars and access-a-ride (which, granted, I know nothing about - maybe it's fantastic.)

Having typed all that, I'd rather be old and feeble here than, say, in Dallas, where I have to drive, until I'm no longer able to, and then have to rely on others for transportation. I'd gladly take a 20-minute journey down a stairwell that takes others 20 seconds for the freedom it would afford me.

It's true that there are a lot of inaccessible subway stations, but at the same time you're much more likely to be able to go about 90% of your life just walking around your neighborhood—restaurants, grocery, doctors, etc, all within a 10 minute walk is pretty standard in Manhattan.

how long until self driving cars in dallas?

Probably awhile.

I can't reply to parasitius, because his comment is dead, but it's also nonsense.

> Just because you get to zone out all the while doesn't mean your day isn't deprived of an immense amount of time.

I'm glad that Austin is working out for him, but we can't shrink all cities, nor should we. 45 minutes of free time is still 45 minutes of free time.

This is such terrible reasoning, the London tube was opened 40 years before NYC and they used wooden carriages pulled by a steam train.

To suggest the reason the subway doesn't have air conditioning is because "It's old" is laughable.

The London one only has air conditioning on the shallower lines' trains, since there is enough ventilation for the waste heat to dissipate. New York should be able to do the same.

I think London is still working on cooling the deep, "tube" lines, where the clearance between train and tunnel is around 20cm.

Sure - I guess the point I'm making is that technology has advanced significantly in the time

> old compared to other world cities

"Not being bombed into rubble" probably comes into play here.

Have they looked into underground garbage storage? I think in Paris (and likely elsewhere) they have large tanks below street level that are raised when trucks need to pick up the refuse.

"They" have not.

Even the underground in Manhattan is crowded. Manhattan is basically an island of very hard, solid metamorphic rock. Most of the city is plenty shot through with tunnels and foundations, and underground car garages.

You could probably ask the sanitation department why they haven't explored these options:

http://www1.nyc.gov/site/dsny/index.page

Please report back, if they ever reply to you.

Also, "terror alert levels" are not a thing, and really haven't been, since like... 2004? And probably only lasted that long, since 2004 was an election year, for "you know who."

I saw it at the Staten Island ferry terminal last week, maybe because it's approaching 9/11? It had a yellow insert and said something like alert level 1.

That combined with the "see something say something" ads does make me feel like terrorism might a real possibility. For my part I've avoided the subway at peak hours. I know it's pretty unlikely, but who knows.

> why are the subways so hot?

I believe the biggest cause is the heat from braking the cars all day. There is no regenerative braking in the system and the older trains have crude speed control so they're constantly braking to scrub speed between stops for curves and work zones. It all gets dumped as heat into the tunnels.

"why are the subways so hot?"

welcome to London...

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