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Comment by blizkreeg | Hacker News Reader

I'm Indian and I know this about many other cultures too - pointing your feet at someone is really an incredibly offensive gesture. And given how the workplace here in tech is a myriad mix of cultures, I'd avoid it. While it clearly isn't considered offensive in the US, it's still a pretty rude gesture. You may think you're just being chill and laid back but the other person is thinking (unless you both have feet pointed at each other lol) you're a moron.

My first week in grad school I went to meet a professor and the fucker puts his feet up on his desk pointing them right at my face. Since I was a fob at the time, I wasn't quite sure how to take this. I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he turned out to be an asshole of a professor too.

In a professional setting, most people wouldn't tell you to put them down, but it reflects badly on you. Do it in India and your boss would fire you, instantly.

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"While it clearly isn't considered offensive in the US, it's still a pretty rude gesture"

There are a bunch of other gestures that meet the same criterion. I am Indian, so I'll list some I'm familiar with:

1. Not addressing your teacher/professor as "Sir/Madam". Addressing a teacher as Mr. X/Professor Y is verboten.

2. Displaying photos of your family at work (mild, but yes)

3. "Disrespecting" your elders/teachers/bosses with counterarguments. ...

On the social front, you'd be expected to

1. Not address your elders solely by their first name.

2. Not cohabit with the opposite sex before marriage.

3. Not smoke/drink.

4. Not eat pork/beef.

5. Not change your gender.

Which of these did you object to/are you going to object to? Will you refuse to work with someone trans-gendered, as would happen "instantly" in India?

The fact is, you were in the US not India. I would argue that the onus is on you to adjust yourself to the customs of your hosts rather than the other way around. Just as an Indian would expect any US (or otherwise foreign) visitors to keep in mind the Indian customs.

PS: you used two epithets to describe your teacher in the same paragraph. I find it amusing that your "Indian" sensibility (Guru! Respect!) is not offended by it.

Or if he is your boss, you better adjust (would that mean the trans-gendered would have to change again? Or is that a double violation?)

Maybe if your boss switches genders, you'd better, too.

Taking it too far.

All I said was that in a professional setting, pointing your feet at the other person is not a clever gesture.

As for your other list of gestures and social expectations, they seem to reek of your own identity issues with being Indian in a foreign setting, not mine. I have eaten beef, pork, cohabited, called elders/boss by first name, smoked, and counter-argued. None of them are offensive and most of them are actually personal things.

>> Will you refuse to work with someone trans-gendered, as would happen "instantly" in India?

Huh, don't you think it's a rather bold and unforgiving assumption that simply because one is Indian, he/she would have an issue working with a trans-gendered person?

I think they were not doing this to offend you. They don't even know this is an offensive gesture. In US the idea of of feet on the table might seem rude and unsanitary but it is not considered as an offensive gesture (like say, giving someone the middle finger).

> I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he was an asshole of a professor too.

Hmm. Why do you say 'unsurprisingly'? Did you assume that he did it on purpose? If he did, then yes he is a douche bag, but I doubt he did it on purpose. Then your logic breaks down. The fact that he likes to put his feet on the table is independent of the fact that he is an asshole. And when you say you immediately "lost respect", that probably means you started to act towards him disrespectfully, and he was probably thinking "What a rude student, he is such an asshole. I don't understand why he acts like that towards me?" So to you he ended up being an asshole you probably seemed just as rude to him, all because he put his feet on the table and you mis-understood the gesture.

I think your university should have had some kind of cultural orientation for incoming international students to let them know that some gestures they find terribly insulting are just the norm. There is little hope the majority will change to your particular culture's sensibilities. I speak from experience, I lived half of my life in another country with different customs. There was some cultural orientation at the university, but there were also a lot of embarrassments and misunderstandings on both sides. I wish I had more silly little pointers and tips at the orientation rather than overgeneralized stuff like 'be prepared for new experiences and new things' -- instead something like this would be nice: "Americans feel strongly about their personal space. Stay the fuck away at an arm's length! Otherwise you creep them out" -- stuff like that.

>> And when you say you immediately "lost respect", that probably means you started to act towards him disrespectfully, and he was probably thinking "What a rude student, he is such an asshole.

I think you should refrain from making judgements when you were not part of the particular social interaction.

When you point your feet right at someone's face whereby you only see half their face, it doesn't need the acceptance of that gesture in a culture to tell you it's offensive. It should be common sense and decency. It's called courtesy and respect to the other person. Unfortunately in the name of a "laidback" attitude, a lot of stuff goes these days.

As for your unsubstantiated guess that I might have been rude -- I would put the odds very much against it as I was looking for a research assistantship at the time. And if you've been in grad school as a foreign student without funding, you know how desperately in need of it you are.

> When you point your feet right at someone's face whereby you only see half their face, it doesn't need the acceptance of that gesture in a culture to tell you it's offensive. It should be common sense and decency.

But that is where you are wrong. It's only "common sense" to you because it's offensive to you. It isn't considered offensive at all in the American culture--there's just no sense of indecency to the gesture. I've had many people do that to me (in corporate settings) and it's something I don't even notice.

I agree it's generally not really something to do in formal situations, but that's not because of the feet but because of the casualness of slouching...

You're making a lot of generalizations here. What makes you think it isn't offensive to put your feet up in American culture? It depends on the setting, really. While it may not be offensive if you're just hanging out at home with some friends, it's obviously unprofessional and rude to do it in a business meeting, an interview, at class, etc. You're telling me that your mother never told you to get your feet off the furniture?

> I think you should refrain from making judgements when you were not part of the particular social interaction.

Why shouldn't I? You described the situation on HN and others will naturally comment on it. If you see that comments are off, then correct the description or clear up the misunderstanding.

> it doesn't need the acceptance of that gesture in a culture to tell you it's offensive.

You obviously do. Showing someone your foot is not offensive in American culture to the extent that giving them the finger is. In India it is. In India you'd get fired for putting your feet on the table towards your boss. In US you would get fired if you flicked off your boss.

It looks like you are just as guilty of being close minded as you claim your professor is.

> As for your unsubstantiated guess that I might have been rude -- I would put the odds very much against it as I was looking for a research assistantship at the time.

Well but then what reason would a professor have to insult you based on that? In other words, you seem to have no plausable reason to behave rudely but neither does he.

> And if you've been in grad school as a foreign student without funding, you know how desperately in need of it you are.

Yes, I have been there. I sympathize with you on that. I ended up doing data entry for a university lab for $7/hour.

"Do it in India and your boss would fire you, instantly."

You must have worked for some really sick companies in India to be "instantly fired" for putting your legs up on the desk. That kind of behaviour is appropriate(maybe) for some medieval feudal environment (lese majeste) but hardly in the 21st century. In any Indian company I worked for (and I've worked for a few), if a boss attempted to fire his subordinate just for putting his feet on the desk, the boss would be out of a job in record time.

Now if you went to America and expected an American to act by Indian norms and did something (by your admission not offensive by American norms) and you felt all offended and huffy and "lost respect" for him on that basis, you are the idiot, not him. When you are in grad school, working etc in another country you should follow their norms as much as possible, not they yours.

Why don't you come back to India (I am an Indian and live in India these days and so "come" instead of "go") where you can be surrounded by people who follow your norms to the letter.

But then, norms vary widely across India as well (though obviously not as much as between India and America) so you might want to go back to the exact village or city you came from and never step out of it. That way you won't have to meet "fuckers" you "instantly lose respect for".

You must be a pleasure to work with and just the type of person who'd be comfortable in an informal startup atmosphere or on a college project team ;-). With your hyper sensitivity to "insult", I assume you constantly researched all things potentially offensive to all nationalities you encountered (and in an American University you must have encountered a few dozen) and kept this data up to date on a continuous basis.

You don't think that when you decide to live in another country, it might be wise to make some effort to adjust to the culture of that country?

Here's a tip: Before you let anything offend you, try to see if the other person might not have meant to offend you. Really try hard and give them the benefit of the doubt. At the end, if you think "they didn't mean to, but I'm still offended" then you should talk to the person.

Heh. It is a very Western attitude to think that you should talk to the person.

My brother lived for many years in Taiwan and now lives in China. There it would be impolite to criticize someone to their face, so the polite way to criticize them is to tell your friends who tell their friends, who tell them. Politely.

Unfortunately Westerners who are put in that environment often respond with, "If anyone has a beef with me they should talk to me directly." Then don't change. And refuse to understand that they are being rude to dismiss polite feedback, and are compounding their mistake by demanding that other people be rude as well.

Sorry, good point. My main point is that you should make some effort to understand the customs of wherever you are. In that light, I'll update my advice:

At the end, if you think "they didn't mean to, but I'm still offended" then you should take the appropriate action.

"While it clearly isn't considered offensive in the US, it's still a pretty rude gesture."

Who says? I live in the US, I'm not Indian, and I find it quite offensive when people put their feet up on tables pointing towards me.

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