Get Your Fucking Feet Off The Table
oppugn.us
oppugn.us
My first week in grad school I went to meet a professor and the fucker puts his feet up on his desk pointing them right at my face. Since I was a fob at the time, I wasn't quite sure how to take this. I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he turned out to be an asshole of a professor too.
In a professional setting, most people wouldn't tell you to put them down, but it reflects badly on you. Do it in India and your boss would fire you, instantly.
> I lost respect for him that day. Unsurprisingly, he was an asshole of a professor too.
Hmm. Why do you say 'unsurprisingly'? Did you assume that he did it on purpose? If he did, then yes he is a douche bag, but I doubt he did it on purpose. Then your logic breaks down. The fact that he likes to put his feet on the table is independent of the fact that he is an asshole. And when you say you immediately "lost respect", that probably means you started to act towards him disrespectfully, and he was probably thinking "What a rude student, he is such an asshole. I don't understand why he acts like that towards me?" So to you he ended up being an asshole you probably seemed just as rude to him, all because he put his feet on the table and you mis-understood the gesture.
I think your university should have had some kind of cultural orientation for incoming international students to let them know that some gestures they find terribly insulting are just the norm. There is little hope the majority will change to your particular culture's sensibilities. I speak from experience, I lived half of my life in another country with different customs. There was some cultural orientation at the university, but there were also a lot of embarrassments and misunderstandings on both sides. I wish I had more silly little pointers and tips at the orientation rather than overgeneralized stuff like 'be prepared for new experiences and new things' -- instead something like this would be nice: "Americans feel strongly about their personal space. Stay the fuck away at an arm's length! Otherwise you creep them out" -- stuff like that.
I think you should refrain from making judgements when you were not part of the particular social interaction.
When you point your feet right at someone's face whereby you only see half their face, it doesn't need the acceptance of that gesture in a culture to tell you it's offensive. It should be common sense and decency. It's called courtesy and respect to the other person. Unfortunately in the name of a "laidback" attitude, a lot of stuff goes these days.
As for your unsubstantiated guess that I might have been rude -- I would put the odds very much against it as I was looking for a research assistantship at the time. And if you've been in grad school as a foreign student without funding, you know how desperately in need of it you are.
But that is where you are wrong. It's only "common sense" to you because it's offensive to you. It isn't considered offensive at all in the American culture--there's just no sense of indecency to the gesture. I've had many people do that to me (in corporate settings) and it's something I don't even notice.
I agree it's generally not really something to do in formal situations, but that's not because of the feet but because of the casualness of slouching...
Why shouldn't I? You described the situation on HN and others will naturally comment on it. If you see that comments are off, then correct the description or clear up the misunderstanding.
> it doesn't need the acceptance of that gesture in a culture to tell you it's offensive.
You obviously do. Showing someone your foot is not offensive in American culture to the extent that giving them the finger is. In India it is. In India you'd get fired for putting your feet on the table towards your boss. In US you would get fired if you flicked off your boss.
It looks like you are just as guilty of being close minded as you claim your professor is.
> As for your unsubstantiated guess that I might have been rude -- I would put the odds very much against it as I was looking for a research assistantship at the time.
Well but then what reason would a professor have to insult you based on that? In other words, you seem to have no plausable reason to behave rudely but neither does he.
> And if you've been in grad school as a foreign student without funding, you know how desperately in need of it you are.
Yes, I have been there. I sympathize with you on that. I ended up doing data entry for a university lab for $7/hour.
Here's a tip: Before you let anything offend you, try to see if the other person might not have meant to offend you. Really try hard and give them the benefit of the doubt. At the end, if you think "they didn't mean to, but I'm still offended" then you should talk to the person.
My brother lived for many years in Taiwan and now lives in China. There it would be impolite to criticize someone to their face, so the polite way to criticize them is to tell your friends who tell their friends, who tell them. Politely.
Unfortunately Westerners who are put in that environment often respond with, "If anyone has a beef with me they should talk to me directly." Then don't change. And refuse to understand that they are being rude to dismiss polite feedback, and are compounding their mistake by demanding that other people be rude as well.
At the end, if you think "they didn't mean to, but I'm still offended" then you should take the appropriate action.
There are a bunch of other gestures that meet the same criterion. I am Indian, so I'll list some I'm familiar with:
1. Not addressing your teacher/professor as "Sir/Madam". Addressing a teacher as Mr. X/Professor Y is verboten.
2. Displaying photos of your family at work (mild, but yes)
3. "Disrespecting" your elders/teachers/bosses with counterarguments. ...
On the social front, you'd be expected to
1. Not address your elders solely by their first name.
2. Not cohabit with the opposite sex before marriage.
3. Not smoke/drink.
4. Not eat pork/beef.
5. Not change your gender.
Which of these did you object to/are you going to object to? Will you refuse to work with someone trans-gendered, as would happen "instantly" in India?
The fact is, you were in the US not India. I would argue that the onus is on you to adjust yourself to the customs of your hosts rather than the other way around. Just as an Indian would expect any US (or otherwise foreign) visitors to keep in mind the Indian customs.
PS: you used two epithets to describe your teacher in the same paragraph. I find it amusing that your "Indian" sensibility (Guru! Respect!) is not offended by it.
All I said was that in a professional setting, pointing your feet at the other person is not a clever gesture.
As for your other list of gestures and social expectations, they seem to reek of your own identity issues with being Indian in a foreign setting, not mine. I have eaten beef, pork, cohabited, called elders/boss by first name, smoked, and counter-argued. None of them are offensive and most of them are actually personal things.
>> Will you refuse to work with someone trans-gendered, as would happen "instantly" in India?
Huh, don't you think it's a rather bold and unforgiving assumption that simply because one is Indian, he/she would have an issue working with a trans-gendered person?
You must have worked for some really sick companies in India to be "instantly fired" for putting your legs up on the desk. That kind of behaviour is appropriate(maybe) for some medieval feudal environment (lese majeste) but hardly in the 21st century. In any Indian company I worked for (and I've worked for a few), if a boss attempted to fire his subordinate just for putting his feet on the desk, the boss would be out of a job in record time.
Now if you went to America and expected an American to act by Indian norms and did something (by your admission not offensive by American norms) and you felt all offended and huffy and "lost respect" for him on that basis, you are the idiot, not him. When you are in grad school, working etc in another country you should follow their norms as much as possible, not they yours.
Why don't you come back to India (I am an Indian and live in India these days and so "come" instead of "go") where you can be surrounded by people who follow your norms to the letter.
But then, norms vary widely across India as well (though obviously not as much as between India and America) so you might want to go back to the exact village or city you came from and never step out of it. That way you won't have to meet "fuckers" you "instantly lose respect for".
You must be a pleasure to work with and just the type of person who'd be comfortable in an informal startup atmosphere or on a college project team ;-). With your hyper sensitivity to "insult", I assume you constantly researched all things potentially offensive to all nationalities you encountered (and in an American University you must have encountered a few dozen) and kept this data up to date on a continuous basis.
Who says? I live in the US, I'm not Indian, and I find it quite offensive when people put their feet up on tables pointing towards me.
A few more "pet peeves":
1. Don't sit on my desk. I'm a programmer. My desk is also my dining table.
2. If I'm eating at my desk, don't touch my food. I'm so busy that I usually bring what I think I'll need for the day. I didn't factor in your needs too. Go to the vending machine.
3. If your come to my desk and see my typing furiously and I don't look up, that means I'm busy writing code or commenting on hn. Either way, if the building's not on fire, go away and send me an email.
4. If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your voice, don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw anything. That's when I leave for the day. Some of us have had enough of that for one lifetime.
5. If we're talking in my office, face me and take your hand off the doorknob. If it's important, I'm not going to rush through it because you're in a hurry to get somewhere else. If it's not important, then leave me alone.
6. If we're meeting, turn off your cellphone. If it vibrates, don't look at it to see who it is. If I'm not the most important person at that moment, then I don't want to meet with you.
7. I'm always happy to discuss important matters, but I don't do "status" meetings. If you want to know status, email me and I'll reply. Otherwise, my status report would read, "Nothing accomplished. Spent all day in status meetings."
8. If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware in your car. This isn't Cheesecake Factory.
9. Don't lie to me. Ever. If you tell me that Joe agreed with these mods, I can easily confirm that with Joe. If he says you never talked to him, I will never listen to anything you ever say again.
10. If you had Mexican for lunch, cut the rest of us a break and use the restroom at the Shell station.
>If there's cake in the breakroom, have a piece, but leave your Tupperware in your car.
People actually do that? Where do you work?
>If you get upset in a discussion with someone else, don't raise your voice, don't yell profanities, and most of all, don't slam the door or throw anything.
If one of the last two happened, that's when I'd leave for good. I've seen people get upset and even raise their voices, but if it ever got even slightly physical, I think I'd have to go. It's just too easy for an object to hit someone "accidentally." The last thing I need is a red Swingline stuck in the back of my head.
How is taking your food not outright theft?
Oh. I guess he just moved here from New York.
Let me add that after reading the article I found it to be lacking in any real valuable content that would have made this a hacker news story. It seems like he is rambling on about something, that yes I agree it is rude, it is not that big of a deal and is part of the American culture.
Also, swear words were thrown in not because they added anything to the piece, but rather because he could. Shame really.
Putting your shoes on the table: Arrogant & impolite
Swearing a lot: A OK!
I don't know why he's so upset with feces on the table when you consider what comes out of his mouth.
Note: I like to swear as well, but I don't go around being miss manners.
A friend of mine grew up in California and now lives in Ireland. He thinks I swear an awful lot, while I don't even notice! Obviously I watch my mouth in front of older relatives, parents etc, but when hanging around with friends, the gloves come off. (He also has the peculiar American trait of having no 'sarcasm radar').
Tommy Tiernan's take on the matter:
"Sometimes I think the English language is a brick wall between me and you (this is in Montreal), and FUCK is my chisel"
Watch 0:40 - 1:10
You can get it from having someone's shit-covered feet all over a surface that you eat off of, though.
As for the bums shitting on the sidewalk, we have a solution to that problem. Winter.
Well, some people use vulgarity the way others put their feet on the table.
"Swearing a lot in someone's face is a way of saying you're in charge, but you're totally laid back man."
Not really. I live in Michigan and sticking your feet in people's face would definitely be considered rude, and, more to the point, nobody does it.
Probably because for a very good chunk of the year, sticking your footwear on a bit of furniture is a recipe for damaging the furniture badly. Most furniture is not waterproof, and it's easy to hit things a lot harder than you meant to with your boots.
More presciently, total ignorance of the question of culture and assumed dominance and superiority over even the possibility of other cultures is part of the American culture. Whatever you might think about Zed, try to separate that from your argument and realize that he does have a point. It's distorted by his comical Personal Over Intensification Field, but if you're the type to throw your feet up on the table do take at least one thing away from this article.
It's extremely rude to some people and thus loudly demonstrates that you're considering their point of view worth pretty much precisely zilch. Even without the dog shit.
We once had a candidate bust an apple out of his cargo pants in the middle of an interview and start chomping away.
While obviously we're not hiring people to be polite, it does show a certain level of social tone-deafness which often portends trouble down the road.
True.
> Some people are really obsessed with dirt and germs. Some people aren't. Some people find legs stretched out is quite comfortable. Some people really don't care about your dumb hangups and like to be comfortable.
A poor excuse for bad manners.
Manners are relative, anyway. Some people think it's bad manners to put your elbows on the dining table. Others couldn't care less.
A sizable* chunk of society? We're talking about "social conducts or rules defined by society" here. They may make no sense, you may not like them, but you still have to live in a human and social world.
It may be overly casual, familiar, or informal
And I'm fine with that, just as long as you also understand it's unhygienic and, after being brought up to your attention, selfish (I'm comfortable) and inconsiderate (live with it).
*I do not have exact numbers, but judging from this thread, >15%?
1) 15% is a sizable chunk? Really? 2) Hacker News posters are about as unrepresentative a sample as you can get.
> And I'm fine with that, just as long as you also understand it's unhygienic and, after being brought up to your attention, selfish (I'm comfortable) and inconsiderate (live with it).
How unhygienic is it when compared with the conditions of the rest of the world around you that you interact with (voluntarily or otherwise) day by day? I don't know. I suspect you (and the blog poster) don't either. It may very well be that -- as usual -- humans are just really bad at risk analysis and stuff-from-feet just really isn't a big deal.
Regardless, it's been a week or so since this post, and I've been somewhat-consciously more aware of the situations where I put up my feet. I noticed that I never put my feet up on desks (that's kinda uncomfortable; I tried it [shoeless] out of curiosity), and never on conference tables (ditto?). My favorite kind of place to put up my feet is on one of the lower supports under a table. So it appears in general I avoid putting my feet up on the actual surface of things where people might put food, or put their hands, or rest their heads, etc.
Having said that, I put my feet on top of my coffee table in my living room all the time. But I never have my shoes on in my apartment, so at least that's something.
Still, though, I think the obsession some people have with "public hygiene" is a bit excessive. Being conscious of personal hygiene is great, but the world is a dirty, gross, germ-ridden place. Get used to it, or go around in a giant hamster ball.
On a side note, I noticed that quite a few posts here didn't present hygiene arguments. Many were from people of Indian or Middle-Eastern cultures where showing someone your feet is considered rude (a fact I was not aware of; thanks to HN for teaching me something new). Now, personally, knowing that, I would certainly avoid putting my feet up in front of people who may be culturally sensitive to that sort of thing. But, directed at people of those cultures: you're (presumably) in the US, or a place where your culture is not the dominant one. You have to understand that other cultures are different from yours, and people may not know that things they find innocuous will offend you. The onus is on you to be accommodating toward them, not the other way around. Just as when they are in your country, they should be sensitive of your culture.
Do you really not see how abhorrent it is to be inconsiderate of other people? It may not be passive-aggressive but it's certainly rude.
In all seriousness, I think having a wank at work is a bit more off-putting than putting your feet up. I definitely can see how you'd think this was nasty, being totally anal about other, similar things, but what can I say? I'm just not thinking too hard about how whether I'm pissing someone off. Don't do it in a meeting with someone you're really trying to impress.
Sure, there are things you like to do that shouldn't be done at work, but the two are not correlated--or at least not as correlated as you suggest. While you've found some very amusing examples, they're tangentially relevant at best and used more for hyperbole, just like most of the article.
It's considered very, very rude.
a) shoes on table
Western Europeans also find the gesture of shoes on chairs and tables repulsive, both in public and in private.
In my experience, shoes on the table in public seems to be a US specific behavior, but please correct me if I'm wrong. You know, something you'd see in a Western. It's a very laissez faire gesture, of a confident and free people, unlike the stuck up Europeans with all their rules.
The most memorable experience for me was with the CEO of a company where I worked. He would do this in every meeting, even when we met with executives of another company. It could have been a dominance gesture, but more likely his hippy attitude.
I've also observed that people in the US tend to put their shoes where others will sit or put their hands, e.g. chairs, benches etc.
b) dog poo
People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! A lot of Europeans don't, which is super nasty. The memory of dogshit in Paris and Berlin, especially on a hot summer day, makes me want to puke. Google for Paris and dogshit and see what I mean.
a + b) what it means
Now, to each their own, but from a hygiene/medical standpoint, shoes on chairs and tables should not be done. Let me explain why.
Even with no visible dogshit under your shoe, there are myriad diseases that can be transferred this way. It does not have to be as horrible as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcus_multilocularis, but there are many others. Eggs of parasitic worms hosted by domestic animals are quite hardy. That's why I'd say, leave you shoes (not necessarily feet) of chairs and tables. Why risk infecting yourself and others? Like wearing a seatbelt, a simple behavior that can save your life.
> People in the US pick up after their dogs, I find this great! Europeans don't, which is super nasty.
I live in Yorkshire in the UK and you can get fined £1000 for not picking up your dog turd. I'm not sure how well it is policed but my town is fairly free of dog turd. Parks, pavements etc are clear. I dont see much at all.
Please dont make sweeping generalistions like this. You are just plain wrong.
Now I know Yorkshire and London doesn't have a dog poop problem, but the majority of Western Europe (I only know of France, Germany, and parts of Spain I visited) do.
So we can say he is 90% correct. Which is still passing on most standardized tests.
It's not the dogs fault, but I simply like my surroundings shit free. Unfortunately, I can't think of any way for that problem to go away. Certainly in Berlin a solution seems millenia away (while some other cities managed to agree on fines for dog shit on the street).
Require owners to pick it up... You get a ticket in my city if you don't.
Actually it might even exist, but nobody cares and nobody enforces it.
I live in the police state of New York City, and yet on my block alone I regularly have to dodge between 4-5 piles of crap every time I walk down it. Not even by the curb, right in the middle of the sidewalk.
In fact, I was kind of surprised Zed got so worked up about SF fecal matter. Although it seems like there's slightly more human excrement around in SF, the shit-factor in his previous home is pretty competitive with SF.
Or maybe Zed wanted to assert passive aggressive dominance against SF by 'talking shit' about it (yow!)....
Tell that to the giant pile of dog shit I found right outside my door with a shoe-print in it.
Putting your feet up on your own shit in your own home to get comfortable? Sure. Or maybe even on your own desk at the office. In a meeting, a professional setting and/or around people who aren't good friends? Please. I would personally walk out.
Nowhere in the article did he describe a reaction from any of these 'passive-aggresive dominants', after they were 'called out' on their offensive behavior.
Neither in Zed's article or this thread, has anyone done so much as mentioned their problem with the offending party.
Sheesh, people. I'm not throwing my feet up on the table, but if those who do bother you so much, then let them know when it happens right in front of you, instead of waiting and venting on the Internet.
Incidentally, most gut flora does not live so well on sidewalks and the bottoms of shoes. Anything that does will just be killed by your immune system.
If you are this afraid of disease, never use a sponge or your keyboard.
BTW, I don't normally put my feet on the table... but now that I know it annoys so many people, I am going to start doing it.
I prefer Zed when he isn't ranting.
After Zed's stream of hate here and on Twitter, I'm a little ashamed to admit that I enjoy his writing. So in addition to putting my feet on the table, I guess I will have to pretend I don't like "Zed's fucking blog" too now.
Sigh. The internets...
I was crossing my legs in the American style. Without realizing my feet were pointed at what appeared to be two middle eastern men and I noticed they were giggling. I noticed and put both feet down and immediately apologized to them. They were impressed that I knew and it made for a good ice breaker (however culturally risky).
Nobody is getting cholera from feet on desks, Monk. Double up on hand sanitizer and deal with it.
It's not about just the cleanliness, it's about going out of your way to rudely put your damn feet where other people have to put their hands. It's offensive and it's doubly stupid because it takes effort to do.
So, if your lazy ass has to do this, then rock on manly man. You hardly earned it.
Sounds like someone has a little germaphobia. And I don't get the whole hand sanitizer thing..."Yea, I'll clean my hands by rubbing the existing crap in there real well, and by killing all but the most serious bacteria so that it has no competition."
> It's not about just the cleanliness, it's about going out of your way to rudely put your damn feet where other people have to put their hands.
No, it's my desk. If someone wants to take their chances around it, that's their call. No different from eating at my desk, really.
I sit in the same damn posture all day hammering at a keyboard, and one of my small luxuries is _printing out_ some documentation on whatever it is that I have to learn about, adjusting my chair to recline a bit, and kicking my feet up. I may do this for ten minutes or a half hour, and certainly not on a daily basis, and I certainly don't leave them on the desk if I have company.
Live and let live, people. If something doesn't harm you, and isn't deliberately malicious, you have nothing to whine about. Go get some work done.
False. SF is a cesspit in any part of downtown, tenderloin, SOMA, the Mission, and pretty bad in many of the other parts. Every day for the past week I've watched a mountain sized pile of shit slowly grind down (by being kicked, stepped on, and rained on) into nothingness outside of our office. It's quite frankly repellent.
Now that I think of it, one time a (presumably) homeless man took a shit on the wall of our office building. It was there for weeks.
*Further SF horror stories: I've also witnessed a homeless man take a dump on the fence down the street from us in broad daylight. Also a coworker has seen a pile of dump propped up against a neighbor's door, and witnessed the shock of said neighbor as they came home to discover it.
What is it about American homeless that they lack even the basic human dignity to find a toilet to take a dump in? Or hell, at least a drain or somewhere their shit will wash away? Are they that disconnected from society? Or is it a calculated thing, like vandalism, revenge against a society they hate? It's nuts.
Sure, I've seen people shit in public. Once a friend had severe stomach cramps while walking through a park in central Sydney; she rushed into the bushes to relieve the pain. And while I was living around there I regularly saw women (it always seems to be women) crouching over drains in the street outside my apartment. Hey, I understand, when you gotta go, you gotta go, and severe diarrhoea makes people desperate. That's fine. But never with this total lack of dignity and respect that SF residents seem to experience.
Why not? And anyway, they could at least try to do it in semi-privacy - maybe behind a building, or in the bushes, or something. No, it seems almost deliberate to me, or alternatively so zonked out on drugs/malice that they just couldn't give a damn. Either way it's not just a lack of facilities. We've all been in a strange part of the city we don't know well, no toilets anywhere and busting to go. We all somehow found some kind of semi-acceptable solution that didn't involve shitting on someone's fence.
I have no idea why it's different in SF but these things just don't happen elsewhere, so there must be some reason for it.
Frankly, I'd rather walk by the occasional fence than risk going into a public restroom after a homeless person has used it.
Evidently in the past there was a move to provide lots of public restroom facilities in the city, but they were soon condemned and removed. It would take significant resources to offer such facilities and keep them clean and safe.
I am concerned about which cities you visit if you find SF streets to be some of the cleanest! Baghdad and Kabul are on par (more actual dirt, blood, and random limbs; less shit and used condoms)
<sarcasm>I mean if Steve Jobs does it then it must be alright.</sarcasm>
Then, of course, people would put their feet up in socks, and Zed would have to come up with another token justification for why he doesn't like people relaxing too ostentatiously in front of him.
Truth is, most guys are disgusting pigs. If you think that what I wrote is totally alright, then you're just proving that.
Nice.
I imagine that a few of those, perhaps with a printout of your post taped, might be a good investment in workplace improvement.
P.S. This is a grab from a movie called "The Pirates of Silicon Valley." This guy is supposed to be Steve Jobs and he's interviewing a guy in a suit who works for IBM.
I can't find the quote; but this was funny -- From wikipedia:
Steve Jobs indirectly commented on the film during a practical joke at the 1999 Macworld Expo. This involved actor Noah Wyle (who portrays Jobs in the film). Wyle impersonates Jobs during the keynote speech, something which only becomes apparent when Jobs himself appears on the stage (to the wild applause of the audience). He corrects Wyle's interpretation of him and tells the audience that he "invited [Wyle] here today so he could see how I really act and plus because he's a better me than me." Wyle responds, "Thank you, thank you, I'm just glad you're not mad about the movie." Jobs laughs and states, "What? Me upset? Hey it's just a movie. But you know if you do want to make things right you could get me a little part on E.R." Then as Noah Wyle goes away, he turns and asks Steve "Are you still a virgin?" quoting a part of the film where Steve asks this to a guy who is being interviewed.