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Comment by imh | Hacker News Reader

>There are companies where this won't fly, of course, where management is so bad or norms are so out of whack that even a 40-hour work week by a productive team member won't be acceptable. In those cases you need to look for a new job, and as part of the interview figure out the work culture and project management practices of prospective employers. Do people work short hours or long hours? Is everything always on fire or do projects get delivered on time?

I have never figured out how to ask this. It always feels like I'm asking, "I don't like to work much, is that ok with you?"

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Well, that's the thing, you aren't really asking. You form the demand as a question to allow for negotiation, so it's not really a question. You should always try to walk into a negotiation from a position of power. It's an art form that is hugely valuable for getting what you want though, and you shouldn't feel bad about trying to get what you want. If you make your life better through negotiation then you might give someone else the confidence to put themselves in a better position. I'm not saying you should pretend your actions are altruistic, but don't blind yourself to the positives that can come from you trying to get what you want.

Sounds a bit complicated, but it's true. It's all about negotiation.

I negotiated lower hours a month ago. After almost 3 years on a project, asked to go down to 20hrs/week. As I see it, I have proved I'm trustworthy and that I can contribute significant value to the project even with lower hours.

In addition, my position of power was that I had some cash and other options, in case the other party refuses.

This is actually something that keeps happening to me. I show my value and that I'm trustworthy, and get anything I want, be it working from home, lower hours, or both.

Its tricky. I usually wait until near the end of the interview, after I've asked a bunch of questions, especially when they say "do you have any other questions?" Then I say, "Hmm. What is work/life balance like at X?" I used to wait until the end of the full-day interview, but many times found out I'd wasted a day on a company that I wouldn't want to work for. So now I do it at the end of the phone screen.

I go a step further at this point and tell people how important that is for me at this point on the first call. I'm not actively looking, but when I was this was a great filter. The ones that really offer it latch on and push how good they are and the others are discovered to not be good fits in short order.

Result? Minimum time wasted for both parties.

How do you ensure that they're answering it honestly, though? Or, less maliciously, that they're answering it with something in line with what you'd think is a decent work life balance?

Its not really in their interest to answer dishonestly: if I take the job and it turns out the work/life balance sucks, I'll leave, and they'll have wasted a lot of time & effort on me.

Also, the people I'm asking are typically engineers, they're not inclined to lie about things like this, and they're not expert spin doctors. Plus, when I go for the full day interview and talk to many people, I'll ask many of them about it.

If they don't answer honestly and get annoyed with you when you clock off after your agreed hours, it's their tough shit.

I worked for two young guys once who'd never had proper jobs, much less ever managed anyone before, and they had the cheek to have a go at me for only working my hours. I told them it wasn't my company and walked off. They couldn't sack me for working my contracted hours, regardless of if other people were working more for free...

I think the best way to frame this is not say that you don't want to work but instead that you want time to pursue some socially acceptable activity like "Learning Spanish", "Working on my haskell side software", or "Volunteering".

This makes you sound more like a high performer and less lazy.(I do not think people who want to work less are lazy. I would prefer to spend much less than 70% of my awake time involved in cranking out "yet another crud app". )

Hi, OP here.

If you're already employed at the company they know what you can do, so it's actually not that hard in many places to reduce hours.

If you're looking for a new job you basically need to: 1. Get the right vibe from the company during initial interviews. 2. Be really desirable as a candidate. 3. Only bring it up after you have an offer and it's clear they really want you. 4. Emphasize how when you work you really work.

And as others said, having a good excuse helps. "I want to spend more time with my child" is mine, and it's true, and why I worked 27 hours/week in the past and 35/hours now.

I always ask what the typical workday is like for someone in my position, preferably getting the answer _from_ someone in a similar position. It's never failed and in addition to getting the hours answered, it gives you insight into other practices you may like/dislike such as standups and number of meetings in the average day.

For my current job, after getting an offer I said that I was only willing to work 40-hour weeks, and that I would have to turn down the offer if this was a dealbreaker. Even though this means I work fewer hours than most people, I can confidently walk out at 5:30 every day, so I think this strategy worked out pretty well.

I have never figured out either. Then only reliable datapoint are other employees (your possible future colleagues).

The not-so-crappy way I found to bring it up is discussion about hobbies and family. But not with management, specially during interviews. They can see right through it.

Isn't that doubly important to bring up with them then? If you hide that this is important to you, you shouldn't be surprised when your expectations don't align. Interviews are critical for checking those expectations on both sides.

A manager who isn't candid about hours is dumb because it will naturally result in a poor fit for both sides and higher turnover. If a company has a decent pool of applicants, it makes no sense for the manager to not screen for people who have a clear understanding of the demands up front.

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