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Comment by superkuh | Hacker News Reader

In a cashless society all transactions are controlled and monitored by third parties. There is no potential for individual volition except at the whim of those controlling the systems. Cryptocurrencies will mitigate this slightly but the loss of cash is going to be a huge blow to the individual.

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I find this approach really curious. All the transactions can be monitored by third parties anyway as all the pos systems are networked and subject to even lesser legal scrutiny than banks. Random adverisers can and do build comprehensive profiles. A company is us claims to have full profiles of all Americans. And yet, if there's a chance a citizen might benefit either via less hassle as in the cash case or via better gov services, everybody goes "but think of the privacy". As a result, societies get downsides of both: there is no privacy whatsoever but no value generated for the citizen.

I think GP's point re cash was just that cash transactions are typically anonymous. Obviously you can get around that by e.g. matching up till receipts against video surveillance and facial recognition tech, but I'm not aware that that happens routinely, so in practice you probably have a fair degree of privacy.

Cash transactions are anonymous only if most transactions are cash. I take x eur from the bank and give them to you. You put x eur to the bank. That's linkable. And the people sign up to all sorts of savings cards en masse making their transactions at the till completely traceable. It is not about what happens routinely, it is about what can happen. Banks don't give a damn about your transaction history as long as you account balance adds up and neither does the government. With cash, there is an illusion of anonymity. Without cash you actually know what happens.

You're right, it's partially linkable, but only partially. If I take out cash from the bank and buy something in a shop, it'll get mixed in with all the cash from everybody else buying things there (which obscures the exact purchase) and for smaller denominations there's a nonzero chance that they might get given out again in change before being banked (which makes it hard to prove any purchase). Until tills start scanning and reporting banknote numbers there's still far more anonymity than you get with digital.

Savings cards I wouldn't touch with a bargepole; I don't imagine anyone who gives two hoots about privacy would.

No cash removes individual volition? Will everyone get a list each month of what to buy?

Try donating to wikileaks with a credit card. Try buying porn with paypal. Your strawman of sudden total control is silly. This frog will be boiled slowly.

Of course, there is one way to be anonymous in a cashless society: purchase prepaid debit cards. One would think prepaid debit cards can be linked to the purchase, but no (at least where's I work). We had a problem a few months ago where a guy bought over $5000 with a fradulant credit card. However, because the prepaids can't be linked to the purchase, the cards can't be disabled; they are treated the same as cash.

Now, if you want to be paranoid, what you could do is purchase bitcoin, toss them through a tumbler, then purchase a prepaid debit card to use.

A lot of extra work compared to just using cash, but if societies want to go cashless, there are ways to be anonymous. Whether it should be that hard is up for debate.

>A lot of extra work compared to just using cash, but if societies want to go cashless, there are ways to be anonymous. Whether it should be that hard is up for debate.

Making it inconvenient can be an issue enough.

The Chinese firewall isn't about making it impossible to go to western sites. It's about making it inconvenient, so that most people use Chinese alternatives.

One other inconvenience I see is with the older generation who give money to their grandchildren.

> "Happy Birthday, Alice! Here's $100"

vs.

> "Happy Birthday, Alice! Here's a check for $100. Now, you can't use that right away. You need to take it to the bank and they'll turn it into a card you can use when shopping."

Also, when I was growing up, actually /seeing/ the money helped me appreciate it's value. I knew to be careful with spending because I could see how much I had (physically). My younger brother: "Can I get Overwatch? It's only $60!"

Will you purchase those cards with cash in the cashless society?

No. Normally, you'd just use your card to buy prepaids, but I mentioned if you were paranoid enough, bitcoin and bitcoin tumblers are an option.

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