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Comment by hawkice | Hacker News Reader

I'm not sure we can have the kind of frank discussions about race in America that we need if just asking about someone's experience is considered out of bounds.

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The problem is that random people you work with who happen to be African American aren't vending machines dispensing resolutions for your concerns about race in America. But they can sometimes get treated that way.

Is it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama? Perhaps it is. I got used to it. (not everyone does). In parts of the world, as an American, you get stared at because you're different (especially countryside). I get used to it, some people find it grating as well as something yo commiserate or bond over.

Some people deal with these norms differently, for sure. For me, I get used go it and think little of it.

I'm not comparing the bias, racism, I'm specifically asking about bringing up tropes and being the rep for a whole country or culture.

Is it _that_ different from being a foreigner in another country and being asked about one's opinion about American interventionism (or whatever) or GWB or Obama?

The only difference is that most people would understand that to be a rude question.

If you travel out of capital cities in the eastern hemisphere, it's common and totally not considered rude by locals. It's lots of people's way of introducing themselves into a convo and chit chat with a strange person, the likes they rarely see outside of TV/movies.

My girlfriend is American and she was asked a couple days ago here in Europe what is up in the US with Dallas and guns and police and Trump etc. It was not rude, it was just small talk.

But ultimately it's also a novelty to her. She can go back to the US and not feel out of place. An African American cannot unless he stays in majority-black districts.

Relatedly, a friend of mine worked in Switzerland for eight years, making very good money as a programmer. I asked why he came back and he said "because I always felt like an outsider."

As an englishman I get that sort of thing all the time in both the states and europe.

Do tell me which country I can visit where people wouldn't ask that sort of question, it would be a refreshing change.

Well, yes, because that 'american politics' question means that you're in a foreign land. Being asked questions that make you feel foreign is expected there. Being asked questions that make you feel foreign in your homeland is a problem.

That happens both ways. Be a teacher in a disadvantaged area. See and hear experience the stereotypes come your way, in your own country and state, if you're culturally different from your student body.

It would even happen to a Georgian in NYC or vice versa. This is quite common.

Things like curtness, impatient, bad driver, accent, Mafiosi, rude, etc. Or uneducated, rednecks, eat odd critters, are racists, intermarry, uncouth, unintelligent, etc. Transplants experience these things in country by their same ethnicities.

These people can retreat to different, but still pleasant places. In America, when black people concentrate, services are withdrawn from that area by a majority white voting base.

Notice your second sentence. Even your hypothetical assumes that the place where white people are considered alien is a disadvantaged place, and that the white person is arriving to educate the locals.

Yes, people can retreat. But they should not have to. Just like the blogger should not have to retreat to somewhere, some other industry, etc. That said, personally, when I've worked abroad and experienced some of what I've related, I simply don't care enough to bother about it --it bothers others sometimes. [As a foreigner you can also be ignorant of the lurking dangers you walk into]

The second sentence isn't hypothetical. I've been in the middle of those convos.

I've also worked with lots of working class people from all the major racial groups while in HS and uni. From my personal experience, there are two which are unafraid to speak their mind and express unreserved stereotypes of the others --even of their own. So, I can tell you from my experience working with working class people, upper middle class people are not especially problematic. Every ethnicity and class has this tendency, some expressed more then others. Some more freely than others.

I appreciate a good "should not have to" argument with a lot of things, but it's becoming such a common refrain left to stand on its own with no argument more rigid to support the uncomfortable objective weight of "what should be" against "What is", I wonder, when looking at all the overwhelming evidence and indicators happening with such frequency and intensity of what factually takes place if "should" has any real weight as a counterpoint anymore.

There's probably a much less loaded way to phrase this question, it's escaping me right now-I'm afraid.

edit: This wasn't an attack on your argument specifically, it just conjured an idle thought to mind.

In an idealized mind of an 18 year old, yes, the world would be simple. People would not poke fun at each other, wouldn't be mean, would treat each other well, care for each other, not see flaws and hold no prejudice.

However, we live in a varied society which was pushed to live together in many ways forcibly. (This kind of conflict can be seen in Northern Ireland, historical Middle East, Rwanda, Sudan, India, etc. where disparate/different peoples are made to live together because by history they did not emerge homogenous-ish like Japan, Korea, Sweden (Suomi not withstanding), Estonia, etc. In these places people comingle but they retain their own identities and vie for dominance, justice, etc. Should we have conflict like this? Ideally no. Does it happen? It does. Can we avoid it? With lots and lots of effort --maybe and it could fall apart in one fell swoop.

So, yes, it should not be like that. A countrywoman should not be treated like an ignorant oaf who is out of her league in the big city --but there will be cityfolk who try to take advantage of the "bumpkin" -even in China. People may do this out of fear, bonding ritual, insecurity, ignorance, maybe outright malice, etc.

I don't know whether it's different or not, but I do know that I wouldn't appreciate being treated as a foreigner in my own country.

Heck, it is often really experating for foreigners when foreigners are treated as "foreigners" in their own country.

I didn't much believe in reverse culture shock. But I've experienced mild versions of it. It's a curious thing.

A number of people don't think so much that we need "frank discussions about race" in America, we just need people to stop being treated as if their role in society is defined by their race.

Including the role of "educator specializing in the subject of the experiences of non-white people". There are plenty of people who -- on a professional or amateur basis -- have chosen that role for themselves, many of whom advertise their willingness to take on that role (or provide canned accounts to the public for free.) But its an imposition to assume that any non-white person you meet is, simply because they are non-white, eager to step into that role.

And we never will when you oversimplify someone sharing their lived experiences because of your personal unawareness of said experiences, and definitely not when one pithily reduces someone's expressions down to that.

Sorry to be that (black) guy but

/rolls eyes

shameless plug, loosely related: https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-th...

Please be civil, there's really no reason to be rude -- even if you disagree. I believe the point that they were trying to make is that on the surface it seems like a double-standard. We have a huge cultural focus on diversity where we want to see more success from those who aren't cisgender heterosexual white males in tech, but when we talk about that focus there's usually a critique that someone is being disingenuous.

We, as a culture, are focused on giving people with social disadvantages opportunities to be successful, and so it makes sense to applaud that success, ask questions, and highlight how successful you've been despite said-disadvantages.

On the other hand, I understand that it gets old quickly, and that eventually the label ends up feeling like it's taking over your real identity -- putting you in a lesser league compared to your peers. It feels like, as you said, that you're reducing someone's expressions down to their minority status.

The only way to appease both sides would be to give people opportunities based on their social disadvantages as a minority and then when they make it big pretend like it never happened. Sure, it's more comfortable for everyone involved, but it seems to me to be intellectually dishonest. What do you think?

I think this comment says it better than I'll ever be able to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093

It's not out of bounds, but there's a time and place for it. Maybe listen for that person speaking about something that frustrates them, and then say, "That's really shitty. Do you want to tell me more about it? I also understand if you've got other stuff on your mind"

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