On Being a Black Man
blog.devcolor.org
blog.devcolor.org
Being attacked or harassed for racial (or any reason) is always unpleasant, but I've always found it easy to rationalize such experiences as outliers, as in, "Well, some people are just ignorant assholes". So I've found the things that happen at an everyday level to be far more deeply unsettling. I've been in a few countries where Asians are rare (yes, rarer than in Iowa) and while I hadn't been physically attacked, the experience of people just staring at me, everywhere, while I'm going for a walk or waiting in line at the grocery, was so unpleasant that I just found myself just not going out at all very much. Not as a conscious decision, but from a reluctance that built up subconsciously, and something that I only realized after I returned to the States.
It's not that egregious acts of harassment don't happen to minorities today. But when I think of why so few [insert minority group here] are in [insert role/geography here], I believe it's because of the undramatic but accumulated things that the OP mentions, all of which may sound like whining to people who, while genuinely disapproving of overt attacks, don't realize that lesser slights can be enough to create a dampening effects.
I've been in places where white people are very rare and I low-key enjoyed the attention. I find being ignored more disturbing. YMMV of course ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Except this is America, where black people aren't very rare. And the attention the author is talking about, more often than not, is negative.
When you were out and about in these places with, were you afraid of being stopped by the police?
That depends where in America. There are plenty of place (some large cities - SF I'm looking at you) where black people are pretty rare. Or at least rare in the areas people frequent.
The funny part is I talk to the folks I know from the South and they have a TON more interactions with blacks than anyone from the Northeast or West Coast do.
I think it will be helpful here to specify what type of people you're talking about in the second sentence, otherwise you're implicitly excluding black people from the general term "people". I don't believe this was intentional, it just reads weird.
I called it out because the SF population is something like 10% black, but most are in black neighborhoods. People that don't live there rarely go to those neighborhoods.
(We had a lot of that kind of trouble in the 1960s, maybe you know, and the strong impression I formed growing up is that while the results aren't perfectly satisfactory to anyone, the compromises are sufficiently so to everyone, and nobody finds the state of things upsetting enough to want to go beyond within-the-system incrementalism.)
Beyond that, and not to get at you personally, but nobody where I'm from thinks about "[having] interactions with blacks". That's a chilly, sociological way of looking at things, and it's hard to be chilly and sociological about people with whom you've spent your life cheek by jowl. It's just not the natural frame of mind.
On the other hand, since moving away from home and to a city whose black population is twice the size of its white, I've discovered the remarkable experience of being hectored on the subject of racial harmony by white people who choose, for reasons on which it would be invidious of me to speculate, to live where there are almost no black people at all.
I've never known a black person from anywhere to assume that, because I'm from Mississippi, I must be racist. I've known plenty of white people from places like New York and California to do exactly that. I don't really know what conclusion, if any, to draw from this, but I sure do find it curious.
Like you said, I've heard that despite the reputation and history of the South, there is a lot more racial integration in day to day life than most parts of America.
And yes, it irks me to no end to hear whites from big coastal cities (who rarely ever interact with blacks) shit all over the South (most of them who have never been there).
As another comment said, though, the sides feel so strongly about that topic of race that bringing it up can have negative consequences in a big way for simplest opinion. They're more likely here to get irritated and dismiss you as an idiot than anything. Maybe shout counter-points at you. Both sides. You have to be in the black ghettos or deep, white, rural areas before it gets dangerous. Still more likely to intimidate you into leaving than hurt you but you take chances there.
Things only heated up recently with the BLM protests. They shut down the main Interstate and airport in Memphis recently. Pissed everyone off in a city with lots of white and black fans of 2nd Amendment. Anxiety & tension is high but no violence I think. A testament in itself, yeah? Hopefully the crap is over soon so race relations & traffic conditions go back to normal. Except I-240 where the speed is about the same. :)
"I've known plenty of white people from places like New York and California to do exactly that."
A lot of white racists think other people see the "obvious" that they see by default. Many were hesitant to say something until they had a few good times with me. Then, they'd drop it expecting me to nod or laugh. I'd just brush it off with a simple No or something instead of arguing with them. Pointless.
" I've discovered the remarkable experience of being hectored on the subject of racial harmony by white people who choose, for reasons on which it would be invidious of me to speculate, to live where there are almost no black people at all."
They trip me out, too. I get more confused the more they talk about "Black" perspectives as differences add up between their statements and those of Southern Blacks. Maybe I just haven't lived in as many hoods and mixed areas as them. Maybe. ;)
All of my black friends who moved into Seattle from the South complain about liberal racism. It'd be funny if it weren't depressing.
Map of races in SF: http://imgur.com/MwIcpSo
From http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/ (2010)
Somewhat, yes. Foreigners in said country are frequently stopped by the police so they can extort you for bribes.
> I've been in a few countries where Asians are rare (yes, rarer than in Iowa)
I think experiences of being a white american visiting a country where white people are rare are probably at least somewhat comparable to experiences of being an asian american visiting a country where asian people are rare?
It simply made him uncomfortable to be an outsider at whom people stared. Something for which I find it hard to fault the residents of Iowa or the other unnamed country.
Actually, in a lot of places they kind of are: a little over 12% of the population, very much concentrated in the Old South states and a relative handful of cities almost all east of the Mississippi. (Six percent of San Francisco's population as of the 2010 census, if you're wondering.)
If you assume your figure of 12%, that means 1 in 10 people identifies as black. I would not consider that "very rare."
As of 2015, there are ~20 million Asians in America. It would be weird for me to agree with the statement that asians are "very rare."
http://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/p...
etc
Closer to 1 in 8, actually. But that's nationally -- the US is a big nation with lots of regional (both large- and small-scale) variation. Its under 7% for California (and SF is pretty close to the statewide ratio, though neighboring Oakland is close to 30%.)
Anecdotally, growing up, there were a half-dozen Hispanic kids (who were my cousins, as my great-uncle had married in Arizona when he was in the Army), one (adopted) black child, and one other (adopted) Indian child. That was the sum total of the ethnic diversity in the entire thousand-person school district in one backwards corner of Maine. We had to rib on the French-Canadians and fall back on home-town stereotypes... There were actually more Asians around, because the Boston Chinese food restaurant cartels/mafia expanded northward. I never met anyone who was Jewish until I went to college.
When I got to college in Chicago, though, I was surprised that for most of my fellow students' high schools, black people numbered in the single digits.
He was replying to an Asian American talking about his experiences outside America.
You might find it helpful to go back and read the grandparent first, then read the comment you're replying to again in its actual context.
I remember driving across the US and stopping in Nevada at a gas station/cafe in the middle of nowhere. I walked in (white male) and got some very hard stares from the locals. Not comfortable at all.
Then I realized it wasn't because I was white (they were white too), it was probably the way I was dressed and the fact I didn't fit in. I was an outsider to them.
And, changing your personality to "fit in" is a lot harder than you might imagine.
It's because, as a white person raised in a white-supremacist society, experience has not conditioned me to see attention as dangerous.
That happened to me (a white guy) in China. Not in Beijing or Shanghai, but in the "smaller" interior city of Zhengzhou (Zhengzhou has a population of 2.5 million). It was very unnerving at first but having my Chinese wife with me helped alleviate the anxiety.
But when I was with my white wife, I noticed a lot more sneers and menacing looks.
> Being asked things like, “So, what’s it like being a black guy in Silicon Valley?”
In all fairness, the whole premise of the piece is that the answer is worth hearing.
Sorry to be that (black) guy but
/rolls eyes
shameless plug, loosely related: https://medium.com/the-phenomenon-of-black/a-few-words-on-th...
We, as a culture, are focused on giving people with social disadvantages opportunities to be successful, and so it makes sense to applaud that success, ask questions, and highlight how successful you've been despite said-disadvantages.
On the other hand, I understand that it gets old quickly, and that eventually the label ends up feeling like it's taking over your real identity -- putting you in a lesser league compared to your peers. It feels like, as you said, that you're reducing someone's expressions down to their minority status.
The only way to appease both sides would be to give people opportunities based on their social disadvantages as a minority and then when they make it big pretend like it never happened. Sure, it's more comfortable for everyone involved, but it seems to me to be intellectually dishonest. What do you think?
Some people deal with these norms differently, for sure. For me, I get used go it and think little of it.
I'm not comparing the bias, racism, I'm specifically asking about bringing up tropes and being the rep for a whole country or culture.
The only difference is that most people would understand that to be a rude question.
Relatedly, a friend of mine worked in Switzerland for eight years, making very good money as a programmer. I asked why he came back and he said "because I always felt like an outsider."
Do tell me which country I can visit where people wouldn't ask that sort of question, it would be a refreshing change.
It would even happen to a Georgian in NYC or vice versa. This is quite common.
Things like curtness, impatient, bad driver, accent, Mafiosi, rude, etc. Or uneducated, rednecks, eat odd critters, are racists, intermarry, uncouth, unintelligent, etc. Transplants experience these things in country by their same ethnicities.
Notice your second sentence. Even your hypothetical assumes that the place where white people are considered alien is a disadvantaged place, and that the white person is arriving to educate the locals.
The second sentence isn't hypothetical. I've been in the middle of those convos.
I've also worked with lots of working class people from all the major racial groups while in HS and uni. From my personal experience, there are two which are unafraid to speak their mind and express unreserved stereotypes of the others --even of their own. So, I can tell you from my experience working with working class people, upper middle class people are not especially problematic. Every ethnicity and class has this tendency, some expressed more then others. Some more freely than others.
There's probably a much less loaded way to phrase this question, it's escaping me right now-I'm afraid.
edit: This wasn't an attack on your argument specifically, it just conjured an idle thought to mind.
However, we live in a varied society which was pushed to live together in many ways forcibly. (This kind of conflict can be seen in Northern Ireland, historical Middle East, Rwanda, Sudan, India, etc. where disparate/different peoples are made to live together because by history they did not emerge homogenous-ish like Japan, Korea, Sweden (Suomi not withstanding), Estonia, etc. In these places people comingle but they retain their own identities and vie for dominance, justice, etc. Should we have conflict like this? Ideally no. Does it happen? It does. Can we avoid it? With lots and lots of effort --maybe and it could fall apart in one fell swoop.
So, yes, it should not be like that. A countrywoman should not be treated like an ignorant oaf who is out of her league in the big city --but there will be cityfolk who try to take advantage of the "bumpkin" -even in China. People may do this out of fear, bonding ritual, insecurity, ignorance, maybe outright malice, etc.
Including the role of "educator specializing in the subject of the experiences of non-white people". There are plenty of people who -- on a professional or amateur basis -- have chosen that role for themselves, many of whom advertise their willingness to take on that role (or provide canned accounts to the public for free.) But its an imposition to assume that any non-white person you meet is, simply because they are non-white, eager to step into that role.
No one ever asks me (a white guy) what it's like to be a white programmer.
One of my friends is a pretty famous guitarist, who happens to be a woman. For the longest time, the first interview question was "What's it like to be a famous female musician?", to which her response eventually became, "It's a lot like being a male musician, except you get this question every interview". Thankfully, the better interviewers have now caught onto this and don't ask such.
So yea, it's good for people to learn about the difficulties/differences in being X in Y, but it's also tiring to explain those frequently, especially if people aren't asking you other things that you might find fun.
I don't get mad at people for behaving predictably, I expect it.
Notable that in this instance where we're talking about opting-out of a popular practice, akin to sobriety or un-dyed hair, but followers of mainstream culture still treat it as a deliberate act.
It's not a "diversity" issue, it's an issue with prejudice - one which can manifest as an unconscious bias (i.e. dismissing with false equivocations between skin color and facial hair).
I have worn a fairly long beard at times. People did ask me about it. What people didn't do, as far as I could ever tell, was act in a prejudiced way towards me because of it.
Are you suggesting that having the option to make that choice is somehow a way out? It's merely symptomatic and utter blasphemy.
This hypothetical doesn't really go anywhere because you can make the beard choice with worldly experience vs. choosing race at birth and growing up as that race. It doesn't even compare.
Even if we were to change this around and ask "What if people could change their race only once in adulthood after some life experience?" the racism chart just gets two additional hate columns for the race-changers.
You made me realize that its actually certain things that we as a society decide as sacrosanct and not grounds for prejudice. So it can be with race, which involves no choice, but also religion, which does involve choice. Or political affiliation, which also does involve choice.
As for any sentiment about whether someone "should have" to conform or not: if many people don't have the option to conform, then that angle is a part of a different conversation. It also confuses the issue - in that it places innate characteristics (which have absolutely no functional implications other than the ability to stay in the sun longer in the case of dark skin) that are focused on within a particular culture on the same level as any expression anybody wants to take i.e. once we accept everything, we'll accept black people, therefore we should be working on general acceptance of all things rather than racism specifically.
It's a cop out. We have a race problem. We have a lot of problems, but race is a very serious problem. Not everything should be accepted; people need to conform in a huge number of ways, or else we don't have a civilization. Things should be taken on a case by case basis based on the degree of human suffering and the societal costs of accepting or ignoring variations from the norm. Race, in America, is maybe the most important thing we need to deal with (second only to sexism in my estimation.) Race, especially anti-black racism, pervades and corrupts everything in the US.
Gender identity is fluid, and not nearly as clear cut as something like race. I'm sure there is some genetic influence that affects ones biological tendencies (For example, I am biologically attracted to men, and I can't really change that no matter how hard I wish to "will" it away) but ultimately how one expresses gender, and whom one decides to be interested in, is influenced by so many learned behaviors, social pressures, and factors that go beyond the biological component. Relationships are much more complicated than "Gee, I would like to have sex with that person." One's preferences in this regard are far more than a simple boolean variable, and the choice of expression is ultimately up to the individual.
Every person will have a unique story and their own outlook on this, so I don't think it's fair to place people into boxes and say, "This is the way things work, so this is the label I will assign you." That's not fair on any basis. Not race, not gender, not sexual orientation or any attributes that are out of the control of the individual. You must instead judge the individual based on their unique characteristics, their behaviors, and their own merits, separate from the group to which they supposedly belong.
Racial and ethnic identity is a product of social context and probably somewhat fluid fundamentally, but the social context most people are exposed to probably results in it not tending to express all that fluidly in most cases, especially given that there is less social acceptance of divergence between socially-ascribed race and racial identity than is even the case with gender identity (even in the case of people of mixed ancestry, there is often strong social judgement if they don't identify primarily with the race that is perceived by others to be dominant in external expression.)
However, racism does exist, but it's a social construct premised on an imaginary distinction between humans based on the amount of melanin in their skin.
In this data mining age of ours, anyone know how to gather statistics on beard length? Like if you wanted to make a histogram of beard lengths with bins like 0-1cm, 1-2cm, 3-4cm, etc.. Or maybe an easier question would be with hair length. Does anyone have a database with those sorts of metrics? For "random" samples, if not an entire population?
[1]: http://gss.norc.org/
[2]: http://gss.norc.org/Pages/Faq.aspx
[3]: http://gss.norc.org/Documents/other/Paid%20Supplements%20201...
I've actually liked talking to strangers who were vets and want to talk about what Vietnam (the country, not so much the war) was like. I can't speak for the OP but I'd like to believe he would happily accept the annoying conversation starters you deal with, as a trade for all the conversations he believes he is shut out of because of his race.
This is in danger of getting too specific, but perhaps it is relatable to the topic.
I don't understand the common perception that any amount of commitment would be involved. However, daily routines, product consumption and professional requirements all sound like commitments to me.
I might be misunderstanding you, but I'm sure that you understand that it takes more commitment to grow and maintain a beard than to simply exist.
So yeah, fielding this kind of innocuous question on a daily basis either tires you or (if you take the bait) puts you on a pedestal where others wonder who made you king.
Mental exercise: replace "black/asian" with "female" and you'll see why it sounds wrong.
The best answer I've heard to that question is, "Because X isn't the most interesting thing about me."
True, but also you won't see any blogs "what it's really like to be a white programmer" either. It's just not a topic that is popular or being discussed as such, so people do not ask about it. People are discussing why there are so few Black programmers in SV all the time in the media, and make declarations and actions and establish programs, etc. So when they meet somebody that they feel belongs to the group they heard so much about, they feel curious. It can be annoying to a specific person to be treated as a representative of a group, but I think that's natural. If the topic of riding bikes was discussed constantly, then at least some bike riders would get asked such questions, because people's curiosity is primed by the discussions. It's just that "white programmers in SV" is not a particularly interesting group one would seek some special insights about. But if you visit some place where being programmer from SV is unusual, you could very well be asked what it's like to be a programmer in SV.
> her response eventually became, "It's a lot like being a male musician,
I think the point of the article is kind of that it's not "like the male musician", at least not entirely like - or, in this case, white programmer. And the point is these differences are specifically linked to being black. There's a community founded by the same person who founded the blog, http://www.devcolor.org/. Obviously, there's something common on which this community is based, or at least it exists for some people that participate in this community.
How are whites possibly going to understand white privilege if they are never taught what it is to not have all those default advantages? (never having to waste extra time at airport, never having to waste time in courts, never having to not be helped purchasing expensive items, never having to be asked to explain the actions of whites, never having to feel guilty for the actions of people who only look like you, etc etc.)
This is more or less the same thing that happens to rich or wealthy people who cannot understand that not everybody has an iPhone or can blow $10k to go to Hawaii.
Maybe this story is a good way to start: "It's not easy being either one of us right now" https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-easy-being-either-us-00000038...
There are plenty of people volunteering to teach you about those things. Heck, there are entire public awareness organizations, university departments, and other institutions devoted to providing education on that issue.
Its not the job of every person of color you meet on the street to be your racial-experience teacher. The same is true, mutatis mutandis, for LGBTQ, female, socially awkward, or obese people.
They promote specific, biased views given most of them are liberal & pushing similar claims. I meet many Blacks in the South, from other cities, and from other countries whose views contradict points I learned from such organizations. There's a whole spectrum of opinion. Certain things most will agree with for sure but the differences can be pretty big.
Funny thing is people involved in the organizations you mentioned often argue with those views until I say they came from Black people. Then they still argue with them. So, do they represent Black people or a subset of them's views? I'm leaning latter. Means I listen to them, read blogs of many types of people (Black or otherwise), talk to individuals about the issues if they bring up the topic, and listen to white opposition, too. Learned plenty by listening to people from all walks of life instead of just the most vocal groups.
From there, the question remains about how best to do that without causing people discomfort. Seems 90% art 10% science if that. I get mixed results...
That said, there are two topics of this question: the general and the specific.
The general question is both easier to ask and much harder to answer. How /are/ things for black people in silicon valley? That's a big question for anyone - much less a single person who spends most of their time living life and not doing ethnographic surveys of black people in silicon valley. This is the question that people don't like being asked because they are constantly being asked to stand in for huge, diverse sections of the population. How has it felt when people ask you how the "tech industry" feels about its reputation in San Francisco?
The specific version of the question is, "How are things for you in silicon valley?" It doesn't mention being black, because obviously the person you're asking is black and they'll be answering it as such. That is a question we can all answer and are generally happy to answer - because we can just answer for ourselves and not for everyone is is "like" us in some way. It is also an answer that is almost entirely about the person answering the questions, though obviously it will reflect their experience with race in some way.
So to answer your question about how to learn - seek out people who have chosen to give their answer to the general question in public and use that information to inform your understanding of the specific answers you get from people you meet. Keep in mind that the general answers are always wide and generalize, while specific answers focus on the circumstances of the person and aren't reflective of their thoughts about things "in general."
It’s equally crazy how much more comfortable I feel around other Black people, or in other countries. I took a trip to Cuba for 2 weeks, and everyone there actually thought I was Cuban — which was surprising, but kind of awesome at the same time. I’ve never felt so accepted in my life.
I'm American and Jewish, though hardly religious. Judaism is a part of my identity, though not readily apparent unless I tell someone. I've been to Israel three times. I feel more comfortable there as a Jew, while at the same time less comfortable as a non-Israeli. It's a hard feeling to explain.
I wonder if this feeling of fitting-in is just a fact of life when you're a minority.
Please don't get me wrong: I'm not at all saying that being Jewish in America is the same as being Black in America. I'm just saying, in some ways, I feel that the Jewish part of my identity gives me some insight into what it's like to be a minority.
To add some levity to my comment: I'm surprised to learn that anyone could hate watermelon. It's just not a strong enough flavor to be that offensive. Funnily enough, I used to not like it so much myself, but I kept giving it a try and now I think that cold watermelon on a hot summer day is hard to beat for a refreshing snack. I'm not sure why I ever disliked it. (I've similarly taught myself to like bananas, olives, and various other foods I used to dislike.)
Maybe it's that things like skin color, religion, nationality and language have been much more significant markers of in-group/out-group than say sports team or profession or favorite pastime.
* (saw it mentioned on reddit many many moons ago)
That long story was to set up this point: In America, the majority demographic (white people) can make a choice as to what subculture they're a part of. But if you inherently look different from the majority, your choice has already been made to some people who were not culturally exposed to people who look like you early enough to accept them as "just people" and not "people who look like this that do $stereotype". There are a lot of people living out there in Small Town or Suburb, USA who have really never had close interactions with a non-white person before. How many years do you have to live like that before it becomes embedded in your mind that people who have a certain color skin act a certain way, just like you have it embedded in your mind that a disheveled dude sitting on the street holding a sign doesn't have a home? If you never meet a black person in real life, and only watch movies/TV that star or are about black people, why wouldn't you think that's how all of them act?
I think that's how prejudice in general starts, and mixed with just the right amount of racial tension, this can lead to full-on racism. I also believe that if you're a kid growing up and all you see of cops are YouTube videos of police shooting innocent men and women, meeting a police officer in real life must be a scary situation. Being a police officer after the last couple years is going to be a lot more challenging than it has been previously.
I wonder whether this is a generational thing or if xenophobia is simply inherent in us as a people.
Luckily, we do have the unique human gifts of reflection, empathy and critical thinking. So while we may be genetically indisposed towards racism, we can still choose to act differently.
I don't think it's something inherent that we can't (as a species) consciously overcome. I have never heard of such justification before now, and I think having it written out emphasizes really well how ridiculous these xenophobic reactions are.
The Sentinelese people react violently to outsiders, but many (maybe even most) first contacts of Europeans with various natives was peaceful on the part of the locals.
There's enough variation even in just the modern world that I'd feel comfortable saying that aggressive responses to strangers/outsiders is not inherent but a feature of some cultures.
Why it's in some cultures and not others is probably a very complex topic worth investigation.
Compare speaking rudimentary French in France to speaking rudimentary Spanish in Colombia.
I think it's sort of telling what the evolutionary stance is on being peaceful and welcoming. Look what happened to the natives as a result. In fact being unwelcoming and aggressive can be seen as a show of strength, which is evolutionary advantageous.
A certain degree is probably inherent, but a big part of it is cultural (and the cultural component probably has all kinds of association -- there's some generational component, but also regional, ethnic, class, and other factors) and some part of it is probably individual experience.
- A foreign soldier that plans to kill or conquer you and everyone you know
- A traveling merchant that you might be able to get along with, but need to be wary of in case he tries to swindle you
- A wanderer that does not pose an existential threat but still cannot be trusted not to steal from you or kidnap your women and children
- Or you could be any of the above to someone else who is going to fight back kicking and screaming
Innate xenophobia is makes perfect sense within this context. Frankly it would be weird if we didn't feel it. The really troubling thing about it to me is that people don't want to accept it as a fact of life and figure out healthy ways to deal with it because it conflicts with their political ideologies.
Is it cultural? If so then why haven't we overcome it.
I can say it cannot be baked into our genes, because of the timespan it takes for such a thing to occur. The last time humanity had any real genetic shifts, were when the population was small enough that (to a modern day observer) everyone would look like they were of the same race.
One thing I find interesting is, as white guy, I've had very similar experiences when living in the US south. I would often be the only white guy in a store or on the street in certain areas - and felt like I didn't belong or fit in, and was treated differently. I got used to it over time, but it was still there.
I don't at all equate my experience to how difficult it can be in the US to be a black person - MOST of the places I go that aren't in certain parts of the south are mostly white (I think the US is something like 70% white?) - it's horrible the prejudices non-white, and especially black, can encounter in the US.
I DO wonder if, whenever an area is mostly one race, that if someone is not of that race encounters the same kind of thing.
It's nowhere near what the author of this story has had to live with on a normal basis though, so racial biases do manifest all over the place, but in different ways with different levels of prejudice.
Recently some black kids got on the commuter train and walked the aisles and said things like "Look at all these stuck up crackers"
I have been treated strangely in non white neighborhoods.
Even as a middle-aged guy, I sometimes feel that the seat next to me is the one people are avoiding. And I've definitely seen moms grab their little girl and march away when I smile at them (the little girl, that is; and then my smile melts from sorrow at the world we live in).
I've been guilty of accidentally referring to one gay guy at work by the name of another gay guy (and it was pointed out to me later by a third person). But the thing is, they both held the same position at different times, and that confusion over their roles was the actual cause of my mistake. Surely it's not necessarily their sexual preference (or skin color in the case of the article) that's serving as an alternate identifier.
I feel awkward when people talk about sports (I'm just not interested and so have no knowledge) or popular culture like TV (I don't even have cable TV).
Now, it's not right to sweep all of his concerns under the carpet. I'm sure that some of it really is racial in nature. But I'm equally sure that some of it is just normal. And because it's not possible for us to live the experience of the other, I can't actually see what it's like to be him, and he can't see the awkwardness that I and others experience.
I'm sad that we're in a position where racial bias seems a reasonable default explanation for such things. But I'm also sad that people also continue to make accusations of racism, because it also hurts to be on the receiving end. I'd have to admit for myself that I sometimes have impure thoughts, but I honestly do my best to make my actions correct.
At the end of the day, I think the only way to get past this is for everyone to be color blind. We need to guard against acting out of bias. But on the other side, those people potentially on the receiving end need to get past it, too. It's not fair. But unless we let it be water under the bridge, the bad feelings will keep passing back and forth like a pingpong ball.
> I feel awkward when people talk about sports
You don't like talking about sports, but it's a topic of conversation, because by and large many people in the US like sports. That is different than assuming you must be an athlete because of the color of your skin (racism).
> Even as a middle-aged guy, I sometimes feel that the seat next to me is the one people are avoiding.
For whatever reason, sometimes people don't take the empty seat next to you. That reason isn't because the color of your skin.
> And I've definitely seen moms grab their little girl and march away when I smile at them
Yes, this is something all men should be aware of. Don't act creepy to little kids. Parents typically do not spirit away their kids when adults simply smile at their children. Something other than your smile is causing that parent.
> I'm sad that we're in a position where racial bias seems a reasonable default explanation for such things.
At the risk of telling you how to feel, how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism.
> At the end of the day, I think the only way to get past this is for everyone to be color blind. We need to guard against acting out of bias.
I disagree with the first part, but agree with the second.
A persons skin color is part of their identity, and we should recognize that, but not use that as a way to group, categorize, or otherwise use as the basis for how we behave towards that individual. We should also be aware that it's human nature to feel defensive against those that are different from us, and to not give into that behavior.
Unless they're white, at which point they get shunned if they even try to embrace that part of their identity.
If a black man says he's proud to be black, that's perfectly fine. If a white man says he's proud to be white, people think "what's wrong with being any other skin color?"
White people do get to embrace their identity, but how it's how they do it that matters.
"White pride", for better or worse, is closely linked to "white supremacy."
That is different than, https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/ which embraces and celebrates "white" culture, without demonizing other cultures.
Things like what you link seem to get a pass because it's somewhat satirical in nature.
Or when you were in grade school, did you only learn about ["black","asian","latino"] authors, musicians, scholars, scientists, inventors, actors, etc etc?
Because the native ethnic cultures, and tribal ties were destroyed by years of slavery, the United States is one of the few places which has a culture for 'blacks' that's uniquely different from anything of a specific tribe.
Being from a W. African country, I'm keenly aware that we do not celebrate 'Africanism', or even nationalism in any respect despite the government's best efforts to get us to do so. Everyone is broadly aware of their family, their tribe, and their choice religion/philosophy.
With respect to white culture, I think it must be hard to celebrate it in isolation. Almost anything that you would want to celebrate, could be given to a specific nation (thus be patriotic, not race pride), or given to a specific European ethnicity (e.g. most foods, older music, and the like).
Or in other words, already celebrated everyday here in America.
Oh yes, that's a good point. In Europe, Germans celebrate German culture, Frenchmen celebrate French culture, etc. Culture is not considered to be the same thing as skin color.
Seriously? Have you read it at all?
How would you celebrate white culture?
Stuff White People Like describes what is specifically the culture of coastal urban white hipsters, which is a relatively small subset of white people in the US. It's really inaccurate to think of those traits as "white culture" period. And I'd call what SWPL does with its subject matter less "celebration" than "savage excoriation". Maybe the people it describes don't take it so; I don't know. I've never yet knowingly run into anyone who took it any other way.
The same applies to the Aboriginal people who have been here for thousands and thousands of years, before my ancestors invaded under a false pretense and treated them like garbage.
However, those were my ancestors. Each generation is progressively less racist than the one before, and we're just as Australian as each other.
The issue is not one of national identity but one of racial and cultural identity. Realistically, it's something that white people will have to put up with and understand as we're still in the long hangover of our more racist years. However, at some point our children (or our children's children) are going to ask why it's it's socially fine to embrace other races and cultures when it's shunned to embrace their own for reasons that are totally out of their control.
Both can be true - racism surely exists, and that is sad. But people attributing things to their race or sex that are not actually caused by their race or sex can also be quite tragic and self-defeating. My impression is that it happens a lot, at least with feminists - I have less experience with the issue of race (not living in the US).
I was at AWS re:Invent last year and had heard that a PagerDuty was having a party, and that we (a customers of theirs) could stop by their booth and pick up a wristband for VIP access. I stood behind a couple of my coworkers, who walked up, got wristbands and left. When it was my turn, I asked, but was turned away saying they are only handing out a limited number of wristbands. I explained I was a customer, and she had just given two wrists bands just seconds earlier to my coworkers, but she was very adamant about not letting me have one.
I went to my room and angrily penned an email to our rep, asking why I wasn't given a band, when my two white coworkers were. Their response was that they only had a limited number of bands. The people working the booth were using their own judgement for who should get one and who shouldn't. At that moment, I wasn't Alan, director of engineer, an attendee of a poor public school system, the first in his family to graduate from high school (let along college). Instead I was just some brown guy who wasn't worth anything. In that moment, it made me remember my most painful memory of racism: when I was 14 years old, and having to comfort my mom as she cried because her boss denied her vacation time, then approved another of her coworkers vacation, despite my mother having more seniority, and having submitted her vacation first.
The point of my story: if you've never really been a victim of racism, it's probably hard to understand why those of us who have been living with constant racism, turn to it first as a reason for how we are treated.
In my opinion, this could have easily been avoided if they used a quantitative approach like "first come first serve" vs qualitative.
That said, for example I also struggle with connecting to coworkers. It is a constant worry for me, to somehow stay connected to the "loop". At that conference, maybe I would have been the last person who heard that there is a party (or maybe I wouldn't have heard at all).
No doubt that is nowhere near the issues people affected by racism face every day. Just an example that there are many things that can be attributed to racism, but maybe aren't. In my case, it is probably being introvert, interested in other things than other people, things like that. Or a feeling that stuck from childhood to not fit in, for various reasons.
I think there are also barriers that are difficult to overcome. For example as a dad, I think I simply don't connect to the other mothers in the same way as mothers talk among each other. I don't think they don't like me, but women among themselves will probably talk a little bit differently than with me present. Or they have it easier to also become friends with each other. It's just a little thing, but maybe over time it adds up - it's the tips and gossip you don't hear. Maybe there is a deadline to register your kid with a certain school, or an opportunity for some special event to participate in, that you miss out on - without any malice or bad intentions. Or even simpler, the lack of suitable playdates for your kid.
In the same vein, maybe if I had coworkers of a different race, it would be just a tiny little bit more difficult to connect. I wouldn't be sure if they are interested in the same things I am interested in, things like that. (Not sure if it would really be an issue, just a theory). So without bad intentions, they would be a bit less "in the loop".
Also you speak of "constant racism". So, even when you're alone, do you feel the pressure of "constant racism"?
You cannot change the past and you cannot change how others act, but you can change how you think. Is it good for you to have a base assumption that you will be racially discriminated against? Are those the color of glasses that you want to wear in this modern world? What will it gain you?
There have been studies that show that it best to take the optimistic assumption: e.g., in this instance that they indeed were limiting the number of wristbands. Being a "realistic optimist" is a healthy frame of mind.
And really, if a denied wristband is the worst instance of perceived insult that you have experienced, count yourself lucky. I've been treated far, far worse at conferences, not because of racism, but because people can be jerks.
Worst instance, no. But one that I felt that story resonate more with the readership of HN, more than my other experiences.
Your perspective is that of a paranoiac: no matter what is said or done your fears of racism are further confirmed.
This may be good practical advice, but it's worth comparing your suggestion to this quote from the piece:
I would say things like, “oh, well I understand that I’m a big, Black guy, and that if I don’t shave for a few weeks and walked down the street at night, I’d probably be afraid of me, too.... what?”
That is, you're suggesting it's the parent's responsibility to cater other people's fears of him. Yet I assume you would not make the same suggestion to the author of the piece? Is there a fundamental difference? What about if a mother grabs her child as a big black man walks past? Is that okay, because her justified fear of men (white and black) around her child over-rides any implications of racism? Or is it not allowed, because of the suggestion of racism (even though race is not, in fact, the motivator of her fear in this case)?
Let me clarify this statement a bit: before having a kid, I was mindful of how I interacted with strangers and their children.
> Is that okay, because her justified fear of men (white and black) around her child over-rides any implications of racism?
I can't speak for all parents, but I hope if my wife feels uncomfortable about a situation, she does something about it, especially if our kids are involved.
A persons safety trumps any desire protect someones feelings against racism. If a 6'2 male is going to cross my path when it's dark, I will certainly become more aware of my surroundings, regardless of their race. I will also turn and make sure they continue walking past me.
I'm not arguing that the logic is in itself wrong -- but whether that logic is being used in a reasonable way (as you seem to be doing) or being twisted into the service of something unfair and evil is, in the end, a matter of judgement and context.
> That is different than assuming you must be an athlete because of the color of your skin (racism).
They could be thinking he plays a sport because of his race, or it could be the fact that he is 6'2" and weighs 240 pounds. Likely it is a combination, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We make assumptions based on race because a lot of things correlate to race. I have been 6 feet tall since middle school and was always asked if I played basketball because, well, a lot of tall black kids play basketball. When trying to have a conversation with a person I don't think their is anything wrong with trying to find a topic based on that person's appearance (i.e. clothing, height, weight) why should race be excluded?
> That reason isn't because the color of your skin.
Again, I think it is unfair to just say his feeling that people avoid sitting next to him is not only true, but it is because all those people are distrustful of him because of his skin color. Everyone feels like people avoid at times, an ugly person may thing it is because they are too ugly, a person who just ran a marathon may think it is because they stink. I don't think you should take his feelings as fact.
> how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism.
It is unfair to imply he doesn't already feel sad about those who actually experience racism, just because he is sad about something else. You can be sad about multiple things. And I (a black dude) think it is perfectly reasonable to be sad about racial divides that feel as if they are growing year by year.
> A persons skin color is part of their identity, and we should recognize that, but not use that as a way to group, categorize, or otherwise use as the basis for how we behave towards that individual.
I kind of agree here, but I find your statement somewhat hypocritical. You say a person's skin color is part of their identity but you also say we shouldn't group or categorize people based on skin color. You were also unhappy earlier about assumptions being made based on race. It sounds like you can't assume any cultural or societal standards for anyone based on race then it is just skin color, and then I don't understand why you would have a problem with everyone being colorblind, if you don't think race correlates to anything. Or do you think people should just completely ignore these correlations despite their existence, no matter how benign (like being more likely to ask if you play a sport you look like you could play based on physical appearance)?
This.
It's a part of your identity you don't get to choose, and how you identify with it - if at all - is solely up to the individual. So, no grouping or categorizing.
I don't personally believe in a purely color blind society, though. I mean, in the article he talks about how it makes him feel when people are surprised by the fact he works in a technical field, which is fine, his feelings are valid. I just don't see anything strange, rude or racist about a person being surprised about a black person doing CS, we are a very small portion of the degrees given in CS, in particular, degrees from prestigious universities (At Stanford about 6%, compared to Asians at 36% and Whites at 38%). And we are a much larger percentage of, say, football players or basketball players. I am not saying you should go an buy your black neighbor Air Jordans so he adds you to his posse when he goes pro, but I do think acting like some one who asks a 6 foot 2 inch tall, 240 pound black guy if he plays football is racist is counterproductive.
I get a chuckle from telling that story, but it's a silly attempt to be "color blind."
To me, "color blind" means the complete abolishment of race as an issue, and I think that will actually hold us back from the real goal: where people are measured and judged by the content of their character, and not by the color of their skin.
I believe your race makes up a part of who you are, and society should not do away with that.
> I just don't see anything strange, rude or racist about a person being surprised about a black person doing CS, we are a very small portion of the degrees given in CS
A single person, just an isolated incident. Happening over and over again, I can easily empathize there.
///
Another anecdote about me and race. As a teenager, I worked at Burger King at a local mall. I noticed that by and large, black people would either get Orange Soda, or Sprite with their combo meals, with the occasional person asking for iced tea. It got to the point where I would automatically hover over the "sprite" and "orange" buttons on the cash register when a black person would order. Then there was one black guy who ordered a coke.
I have kids of my own, and I think treating someone like a creep just for smiling at your kid makes you an asshole.
So it seems that these parents who are marching their kids away are doing so for a reason other than the smile.
Unless that smile is creepy, and/or the parent commenter is creepy.
I am amazed at how a man smiling at a child is presumed to be creepy. I mean, we are biologically programmed to like kids (at least the sight of them, sound may be a different matter :), a phrase "cute kid" is as cliche as it can get. And still, if a man smiles to a child, he must be a creep. Strike that, he is a creep, it's definite and sealed. And, of course, it's his fault - after all, he should know that as a man he can't do such perverted things as smile at the sight of a cute kid.
Is that unique US thing? I've never seen so much paranoia about kids and males as in the US in other countries. It feels really weird to me.
> At the risk of telling you how to feel, how about feeling sad that people are actually victims of racism.
One can do both. Both feel sad at people who are victim of real racism, and people who are victims of everything being reduced to racism.
The US is, I believe (its been a while since I've seen stats on the perception and reality, this was definitely true last I did see them) in a multi-decade long media-driven misperception of a rising tide of crimes involving stranger (especially male stranger) abduction and violence against children, while the actual incidence of such crimes has been declining for decades. So, yeah, its probably a uniquely (or at least, especially) American thing.
Teaching your children that a friendly smile is creepy is a great way to reinforce the statistically irrational stranger danger and bring them up with the idea of men-as-beasts and women-as-prey that reinforces patriarchal societal structures.
Please consider reading up on enough basic feminism to realise just how much of a disservice that would be to your children.
Sure, but let's acknowledge and then fix the systematic oppression in our country and implicit bias inherent in our people first.
"Rich people have always stayed on top by dividing white people from colored people, but white people got more in common with colored people then they do with rich people. We just gotta eliminate them - white people, black people, brown people, yellow people - get rid of 'em all. All we need is a voluntary, free spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody til they're all the same color."
I think he's right! Of course Bulworth makes it look easy by falling in love with Nina (Halle Berrie). You can read Bulworth's full answer at
I experience both of these things when I was younger. Not so much anymore.
people avoiding you on the street
As I related above, I've had moms keep their little girls away from me. Is the perceived potential danger from a middle-aged guy much different from that of a black guy?
explicit discrimination from landlords
Funny you should mention that. As it happens, my wife is Asian. I know for a fact that in at least two rental situations, we were given preferential treatment because of that. It cuts both ways.
Again, as long as people keep pointing fingers at me and telling me I'm a racist, I will grow increasingly inured, and even angry. I think that in the end, you start to have the opposite of the effect you'd like.
Black people getting the short-end of the stick while Asians (allegedly) getting preferential isn't "cutting it both ways".
> Again, as long as people keep pointing fingers at me and telling me I'm a racist, I will grow increasingly inured, and even angry. I think that in the end, you start to have the opposite of the effect you'd like.
It's your prerogative. Not specifically directed to you, but it is important to note that racism is not a state of mind - it's the way you act. A lot of prejudiced people do not feel like racists even after their obviously racist tirade has been recorded. Being a racist is a terrible thing and they obviously aren't terrible people, so how can they possibly be racist?
In both of the cases mentioned, my wife's race was really just acting as a proxy for "immigrant", and the people on the other side weren't fellow asians showing solidarity. In these cases, it was landlords who were themselves (non-Asian) immigrants, feeling empathy for someone else going through the difficulties of being an outsider.
And yet that's exactly what you are doing in your entire comment, drawing parallels that are not equivalent and then sweeping under the rug the racial issues as nonexistent. You are discounting the experience of the vast majority of black Americans.
[0] https://www.google.nl/search?q=black+pete+netherlands&ie=utf...
Now, is that really a case of racial discrimination? Maybe, for some reason, black people are more likely to give cab drivers a hard time? Even if it not related to skin color directly, such as which neighborhood one is at.
> Feeling out of place when I can’t identify with certain pop culture references or cultural norms (like being able to swim, liking baseball, listening to rock/country or playing golf), because I grew up differently
I think this is key. Why is it that you have to grow up differently if you are a black person? Would it be (in the US), because there's still segregation, in terms of territory? You can find neighborhoods that are almost entirely "black", next to "white" neighborhoods. What gives? I've never really understood why that is. Why is hip-hop associated with black people, but not rock? What about swimming?
The rest of the list is even more depressing. As a white guy, I have never experienced that.
You're getting really close to sounding racist, and some would say you already are.
Why would there be a reason black people would give cab drivers a harder time than other skin colors? There isn't any good reason.
As for neighborhood differences, that's a problem of racism (segregation) too.
This is clearly happening, based on the anecdote of cab drivers avoiding picking up black people as well as telling the OP he is the first black person who they had a positive experience with. Some stereotypes are based in reality, and it isn't racist to acknowledge this.
When I first read this I thought of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping
and it took me a moment to recover!
(but read http://modernfarmer.com/2013/09/cow-tipping-myth-or-bullcrap... for a refutation)
What the above parent wrote is, "there's no good reason for black people to give cab drivers a hard time." This implies that, given that there's not a good reason, it is not likely true.
So, what do you think the reason would be that black people would unanimously give this cab driver a hard time, except for this one guy? Based upon your above proposition, you may also want to explain why your explanation is not racist.
I could definitely believe that black people are less likely to tip (or avoid paying altogether), as black people are poorer (on average). Black people are also much more likely to commit violent crime (on average). Note that cab drivers are likely to not be white (on average), at least in my experience. I did some research and it appears to be common for cab drivers to avoid picking up black passengers - this is pretty strong evidence that cab drivers have had negative experiences with black passengers.
It is racist for cab drivers to avoid picking up black passengers, but we shouldn't pretend that they don't have a reason for it.
But that isn't the cabbies problem to solve. Its perfectly reasonable for a cab driver to try to avoid high-crime areas that are much more dangerous even if he doesn't have one racist bone in his body.
The author didn't say it was racial discrimination. The author said that is something he has experienced.
To the point or racial discrimination, if cab drivers make the connection that picking up black passengers will lead to a negative experience, they might conclude that all black passengers should be avoided. That is racial discrimination.
*
I remember 2 years ago being out at night with a coworker (who is not from the US) in Chicago trying to hail a cab, and several empty cabs drove on by. When she went to hail one, the first one she hailed stopped, and I quickly got in with her.
She was surprised that no cabs would stop for me. I told her "Welcome to America. This is what racism is like."
More realistically it's likely a mixture of racism and sexism (and possibly, depending on dress style and expectations classism as well), entirely possibly to different degrees on the part of different drivers who didn't stop - and also on the part of the driver who did stop for the white woman stood near the black man.
I really don't think you want people on HN to try to explain de facto segregation and the history of race in American music to you -- you should really look for reading material by academics on these subjects.
I would also like to add that it's discouraging that someone who is evidently a white American is so ignorant about these things. Not having at least a cursory understanding of "why do black people like hip hop more than rock?" and "why are neighborhoods still racially segregated?" means you probably aren't capable of engaging in any healthy discussion about race in the US.
Let's just break it down into whether it's discriminative thinking, or perhaps just reduce the thinking down to whether that single proposition might likely be a logical fallacy or not.
"Person A of set X is the only one I have ever interacted with, with the properties of said interaction being Y."
Well...how many people of set X have you met? Two? A dozen? One hundred? That number matters. If the cab driver had met two previous people of set X prior to A - why did he choose to say it at that time? Intuition tells me that it's because the cab driver had expected that all future people of set X would have properties Y, and is voicing his expectation. If the number had been 100, then he was voicing an observation.
But, even if the number had been 100, and he was voicing an observation, then where did that assignment of property Y come from? With the property Y being, "positive," suggests all-or-nothing thinking...e.g. that interactions can either be positive or negative, rather than gradations and interactions in between. Typically this kind of, "all or nothing," thinking is considered fallacious.
Just because some kind of fallacious thinking may have occurred, does not mean that the cab driver was necessarily thinking discriminatorily. It's possible that in the world somewhere, there is a cab driver who happened to pick up only the worst, nastiest people of a type X, greater than 1,000 of them, representing all different subcategories of X from his point of view, from all over the world, for his entire career up until that very day when he for the first time, encountered a positive interaction, amazingly. But the simpler explanation is that he was just discriminating.
A considerable amount of private violence, durable contractual arrangements (including the ones that set the ground for modern HOAs), and deliberate government policy went into creating durable racial segregation in housing in the US; plus, the economic system tends to make poverty generational and correlated with race, and there are lots of factors leading to wealth segregation in housing, which -- because of wealth/race correlation -- reinforces racial segregation.
Looking into "redlining" is a good place to start.
"Even in Canada, I felt more comfortable than I do in Silicon Valley."
Now is this a function of Canadians being less racist, or black people in Canada being different than (the "average") African Americans? Or in other words, do African Americans have a distinct culture? My suspicion is a combination of both, with the former being a result of the latter, and the latter likely having the ultimate root cause being slavery. As a Canadian, in Canada black people are just people whose skin is black, for the most part there's nothing otherwise particularly unique about them, and if there is generally they are immigrants from a wide variety of countries, so there's not a single unique culture, but many.
I think the ultimate "blame" for this unfortunate situation rests mostly with white people, but if we ever want to fix it, it's going to take both sides to acknowledge real differences in our cultures, and consider working on changing any that might be a barrier to a more harmonious future.
I suspect that the Black Canadians fit in better because they decided to be part of Canadian culture, then moved; or are the children of people who also made the conscious decision to become a Canadian. For the majority, I think they came to Canada to be Canadians.
In the U.S, most black people are from the post-emancipation culture, which on top of never consciously deciding to go to America, also endured segregation and significant racial violence in many decades following emancipation. This has led to an understandably very different culture.
It seems to me like a few decades ago there was more interest in integrating the post-emancipation culture with the two or three other distinct cultures in the U.S. That's where you got all the "ebony and ivory living in harmony" stuff. One of the outcomes of that is, when there is a cultural question, and there can only be one answer, one of the two will always have to adopt the other's answer. Fewer different answers to a question is good for cultural integration, but it makes people feel as though they've been hijacked or gentrified.
As for the consequences belonging to "white people". All of the people who did anything which contributed to this are dead. The enslaved africans of the trans-atlantic slave trade were largely slaves taken in local wars by warlords. I don't blame contemporary coastal African societies for the trans-Atlantic slave trade, so I won't blame contemporary American society for it either. We can deal the consequences on the basis of individual effect.
> when there is a cultural question, and there can only be one answer, one of the two will always have to adopt the other's answer.
Are there really this many differences where we must only adopt one?
For swimming, the norm in America is to think you know how to swim. 80% claim they can swim, but only 56% can demonstrate the five core skills that the Red Cross considers to be basic skills. The skills are (1) step or jump into water that is over your head, (2) return to the surface and float or treat water for one minute, (3) turn around in a full circle and find an exit, (4) swim 25 yards to the exit, and (5) climb out of the water [1].
The author, though, is from Jamaica. I would have guessed that swimming would be much more common there, since it is an island nation. However, to my surprise, a bit of Googling reveals that apparently Jamaicans are no more inclined toward swimming than are those who live nowhere near large bodies of water.
[1] http://www.redcross.org/news/press-release/Red-Cross-Launche...
That too. But actually knowing is a norm, too.
> 56% can demonstrate the five core skills that the Red Cross considers to be basic skills.
i.e., the majority of Americans can swim.
For baseball: > 60% of the players in the league are White, while 28.53% are Hispanic. That leaves roughly 12% available for Black and Asian players[1]
For basketball: > NBA in 2015 was composed of 74.4 percent black players, 23.3 percent white players, 1.8 percent Latino players, and 0.2 percent Asian players.
In that exactly as many black people play baseball professionally as you'd expect, just looking at population numbers.
[1] http://www.besttickets.com/blog/mlb-players-census/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA
You could assume that. But in the islands you'd find that public access to open water is highly restricted. Most beaches are owned by resorts. The one remaining public beach in Jamaica was sold off to Chris Blackwell, who owns other resorts in Jamaica. Anthony Bourdain covers this in Parts Unknown.
With so few opportunities to swim it should come as no surprise that most island people can't.
WG: "So, when did you get your green card?"
Me: "hmmm, I am American"
WG: "Really? From where?"
Me: "[city in California]"
WG: "So, but when did your family move to the US?"
Me: "hmmm, I have no idea. I think the first ones came here in early 1800s"
WG: "THAT CAN'T BE!"
Me: "So, when did you get YOUR green card." (at his point I am just trying to play with him)
WG: "No, I am an American born and raised in [California city]"
Me: "But when did YOUR FAMILY move here?"
WG: "Well, my grandma was from [european country]?"
Me: "Well, I think if that is a definition, I am more AMERICAN than you!"
WG: Awkwardly walks away
Texas is America.
No, Texas is in America, it is not America. (America was taken from the... so-called "Indians"... and Texas is something of a microcosm of that.) Furthermore, your earlier post was literally predicated on "some historical event that happened more than 170 years ago": in the "early 1800s". Finally, it is clear I discussed race.
So no, despite the prevailing atmosphere of hysteria, I’m not afraid of being killed by the police. Quite the contrary: sadly, the data shows I’m much more likely to be victimized by a fellow black man than by a white police officer. So may the police remain sharp, aggressive, and strike fear into criminals so the good people don’t become victims.
http://thefederalist.com/2016/07/11/if-you-dont-want-police-...
He says it himself in the article, that it's a problem that runs much deeper than "Don't resist arrest", and then immediately tries to solve it by saying "Don't resist arrest", dumping the problem on the victim and expecting them to figure it out on their own.
Sorry if that came across strongly, like I said I'm just an outsider looking in; I appreciate the discussion :)
So, yes people will judge you. But, you can also distract people by giving them something else to focus on which is under your control. While I am not suggesting you walk around in clown shoes, but if you did that's going to be the first thing on everyone's lips.
This was the most surprising to me in his list of things he has grown accustomed to.
You regularly see white people "embarrass" themselves by engaging on this topic in the "wrong" way, even if they have the right intentions, without a clear idea of what to do (e.g. Howard Schulz, Macklemore, etc.) ("White People. Don't talk about racism." "White People. You have to lead the conversation on race.") Given such limited upside and very significant downsides, it's no surprise that the vast majority of white people refuse to engage on the issue, even if they actually do want to contribute positively.
I myself follow this rule religiously -- I run a small startup in Silicon Valley, with male and female engineers, all white, Asian, and one Latino. But I'd rather chew on broken glass than ever discuss any "controversial" topic, such as diversity, racism, Black Lives Matter, Donald Trump, immigration, etc. etc. -- I just will not discuss it in any context and in any forum, because there's nothing to gain and too much to lose.
I would imagine, without going too far down the research rabbit hole (because this is a close topic to me being both black and a lover of food history in general) that the whole "fried chicken and watermelon" thing are likely poorly understood branches coming from that evolutionary tract.
Take Huey P. Newton for example, I've had plenty of frank, honest and open discussions with individuals who want to tell me everything they know about Huey P. Newton and his "radical-ness" and his "anger" and his "passion" as a Black Panther because of whatever oral tradition they've had passed down to them informing their viewpoint of the man-but it never goes very far beyond surface-level descriptions, and rarer still his philosophies or doctoral essays. Substitute Newton with James Baldwin, Clarence Thomas, MLK, heck even Dr. Cornel West.
I think the same unfortunate blurring of the culinary traditions of Black Americana has happened re: Fried Chicken and Watermelon-thin, surface-level oral traditions passed down time and time again until we got where we are now "Fried chicken, watermelon and purple koolaid" are for good or ill tied into every conversation of "black foods".
And not to derail the conversation, but as a fellow Boulderite who desperately misses having a a Popeyes within 20 minutes, have you found any good fried chicken places? I have yet to find anything besides Yellowbelly and the exceptionally terrible KFC on Arapahoe.
That being said, I can see how it would be bothersome especially if a source of the confusion was due to something I'm sensitive about. I imagine (from your post) it'd be like if somebody mixed you up with "that other guy who isn't good enough to be a front end engineer". Even if both of you were plenty qualified to be front end engineers, due to your sensitivity it might be a little bit more raw. Thankfully most of us don't have to walk around with evidence of our sensitive issues all over our bodies.
But my God are are you brave for using that handle on HN, sir.
I feel for this guy and I realize that I'm part of the cause of his problem, but I don't know what I can do about it.
Of course, if your particular lifestyle doesn't result in you getting to know anyone in the specific group naturally, it's probably impossible to fix that gut reaction. Humans are very much slaves to their instincts.
Four of the things he has grown accustomed to experiencing are feelings. (e.g. Feeling relieved when people don’t verbally address the fact that I’m Black Feeling out of place when I can’t identify with certain pop culture references or cultural norms (like being able to swim, liking baseball, listening to rock/country or playing golf), because I grew up differently Feeling like I have something to prove because I’m Black Feeling like I was chosen for certain photo/video opportunities at work and during other activities to feign diversity and acceptance)
We cannot be responsible for how other people feel. Feeling alienated and out of place is something that's common for all people.
Once you have an inner locus of control, things flow more naturally. If you think of your feelings as subject to the whims of the external world, then you are always going to be in a world of hurt, no matter what color you are. You can always find a reason to feel bad about yourself.
I don't recall him asking anyone else to be responsible for how he feels. (And each of those describes an event that he has also become used to -- in one case implicitly by opposition to the one triggering the feeling. In some cases those actions are ones for which someone else might reasonably be responsible -- though, again, he's describing his experience, not saying anyone should be responsible for those experiences.)
This is the best part I took from this. I don't believe I have many positive role models in my life that align to my goals.
It's very sad to see how few "majority" people are able to observe the obstacles faced by any minority and, in the case of Brazil and UK (where I live now), black people.
I was very nice to read about the author's experiences and how he felt about it because it gives me a bit of insight on this matter. At least now I know I was right about not asking "how is it to be a black guy at..." hahaha
Even most of the the not-so-good comments are well-intentioned, even if ignorant.
What are the odds that any particular black person is a gangster? What are the odds that any particular white person is a gangster? How is near-zero different from near-zero?
I feel sorry you had borne all these wounds to your social identity, but I'm sure one day we will tackle the very roots of inequality and bigotry.
https://medium.com/@Mandela/my-white-boss-talked-about-race-...
I was surprised that some of the things in the list that I would have though to be the most innocuous turned out to be the ones that actually affected him the most. I guess this goes to show that its the little but pervasive things that hurt the most.
"Feeling out of place when I can’t identify with certain pop culture references or cultural norms (like being able to swim, liking baseball, listening to rock/country or playing golf), because I grew up differently."
I know many people of all kinds that don't know how to swim, that don't like basketball or listen to country or play golf. In fact, I would say a minority of the people I know do all these things and I'm not even sure most people I know do most of these things.
I can't draw a larger conclusion at the moment (I am sure the larger HN community has many ideas), but I don't think you should feel awkward about this.
p.s. I didn't know who LeBron James was in 2009.
If you're a white person who doesn't know how to swim and it gets brought up in conversation, your interlocutors might be a bit surprised - because swimming is a somewhat common skill in 2016 in most parts of the world - but that'll be the extent of it.
However, it is my understanding that if you're a black person who doesn't know how to swim and it gets brought up in conversation, you get to hear semi-frequently something along the lines of "oh yeah that's right, black people can't swim" (not necessarily that explicitly stated, but you get the idea).
I hope you can see why it might problematic to repeatedly have this kind of interactions in your life.
Obviously it's pretty outdated, but stereotypes are rarely concerned with accuracy.
Seems then part of the problem is behaviour of other black people
ie: Its natural to be afraid of big people. Its racist to be afraid of only big people who are black.
I was born I Brazil and now live in UK where, despite the abyssal difference in physical/verbal violence against black people, it's still very easy to see how white people act more "jumpy" around black people. Mind you I'm "very" white (german descendant) and even to me it's clear the difference.
The notion of justifiable discrimination will take you to a very scary place if you apply it consistently.
So I'm used to one of the things listed in this article. I'm fine with this preconception people have, as it's not that much of a problem on it's own, and it's easy to take it in my stride. However, it's the gestalt of all those things that the author is talking about that is the problem. They all work together, and if I experienced all of those working against me, I'd feel unfairly treated as well. "People fear me unfairly on the street? No worries, I'll be at work soon, and I don't have to deal with that shit there..."
However, I strongly object to the idea that it's okay to discriminate based on unalterable characteristics as long as you're not discriminating against a member of a legally protected group.
So they're doing the right thing.
But is it necessarily racism? Possibly it is a survival mechanism? After all, don't you notice a white guy of your own size or larger coming toward you?
I think it is natural, and likely a genetic trait, to pay attention to and/or even avoid persons of larger size. Color may add to this wariness, since it is common knowledge that black men are more dangerous than white men. Neither is racism: the first is IMO genetic, the latter is based on statistics.
For example, I think that the reason people mistake the author of this piece for other black men is that white people have spent most of their lives around other white people, so they become accustomed to the kinds of differences in facial features that white people have. We have less practice differentiating between the facial features of black people, so naturally we're going to be worse at it. It's not malicious or racist.
And in my lifetime, I've had a few people just outright say to me that all white people look the same to them. Which isn't offensive--it's because they grew up around people who looked like them, and have less practice differentiating between white people.
But tensions are so high, that this innocuous common mistake is seen as discrimination merely because it's related to race, not because of any malice or even intent behind it. And I'm quite sure that many people would call me racist for even having the opinion that mistaking people of color for other people of color isn't racist. Even though it could actually be helpful to people of color. If people of color see that white people don't have trouble recognizing you because they dislike you, but because you literally look different from people who they have practice recognizing, that might encourage confidence.
And to be clear, I'm not complaining. It doesn't hurt me at all to keep my mouth shut, and not say anything on the topic of race. The only people who are hurt by my not helping are people of color. Which sucks, but is the result of how tense people (both black and white) are about race.
In short, everyone (of all colors) should chill out and focus more on the problems that are clearly problems, not just assuming anything any white person says or does that is race related is racist. That just alienates allies and makes people of color feel hurt.
EDIT: I do want to point out that while I don't think mistaking one person of color for another is racist, I do think that many of the behaviors the writer of this piece pointed out are racist. I don't want to say that what the author wrote is all incorrect or invalidate his opinion.
EDIT 2: A flurry of downvotes without responses prove my point--people can't point out logically why they think I'm racist, but they downvote to express that they think I am. :)
Honestly, all people look mostly the same to me. The only ones that stand out are the beautiful ones. If you ask me to mentally visualize faces of people I've seen during the past few days or weeks, the ones that will stand out the most will be the attractive ones (regardless of race, although being white, I am a tad biased).
The other ones who stand out will be people with features similar to mine, from a certain European ethnicity.
However I grew up in an area which has 4 towns that are the most racially diverse in the US, so I may be accustomed to all the races, so I have to find other features that stand out more (Probably 99% of my days I see people of all races, and probably from every continent as well)
I'd like to do a small study personally, that should take me about 10-20 hours, and I'd like people's feedback here about what they think about the methodology.
- First, I'd put together ten generic keyword-laden resumes using machine learning from a large dataset - which means it should somewhat reflect an "average" programmer, without representing anyone in particular. It will literally therefore be the creation of a non-existent person.
- Next I would edit it by hand so that it doesn't seem grossly machine-generated. At this point I'm still blinded, and I'd have ten programmer resumes.
- Next I would generate a separate list of common first names and surnames. Since most people are white, likely most names are somewhat white but this shouldn't be that relevant, also given that people have the right to change their name legally. The importance of this is that with such generic names, it is almost certain that there are a large number of programmers with that name, and so googling by the employer won't point to anyone in particular. At this point I have ten resumes and ten names.
- Finally, I would find stock art of a generic black man and generic white man. I would try to pick neutral images that if I were such a person I could actually have taken of myself, and may actually use on a resume. I would only just find two, since the goal of the experiment would be to do A/B testing on just the effect of this image. This is what is being studied.
- For the experiment itself, I would create email addresses for the ten names, and write cover letters that match the ten resumes.
- From each email I would email twenty-thirty companies based on a keyword search from the associated resumes for positions that seem a match. I'd be careful to pick all different companies.
- I'd carefully rewrite the cover letters (in my own voice) about how excited I'd be to work there and what a great match the position seems to me, as they can see from the attached resume.
- Finally, and this is the tricky part, when actually attaching the resume, in a blinded way I will use a script to insert either the black or the white man's picture. I must not see it in order for this to be a doubly blinded experiment. This is actually easy to do technically: .docx files are just .zip files, you can rename them, change the image in the zip file, and zip it back. I don't need to record anywhere which of the two the script chose (randomly), because as soon as I send it it will be in the sent folder.
The same name and resume must go to a mix of companies, some being sent the picture with a black man, some being sent the picture with the white man. Since I'd be careful not to email the same companies, it doesn't matter if the same name/resume is sent to some companies as a black man and some companies as a white man.
What my prediction is, is that the picture will have a statistically significant effect on emails back. (I don't want to bother setting up ten real phone numbers, what a pain, so the phone number will have to be omitted from the resumes.)
Now, this method isn't perfect. For example, real programmers frequently have github profiles or a large online presence. Still, by sticking to the most common of common names, perhaps there should be enough of a profile to be worth an email back, especially given an enthusiastic cover letter, even if they can't find this programmer in particular.
Finally, after the experiment the recipients could be informed that they were part of a study. But perhaps this is not so important. After all, if they don't email back they likely have forgotten about the resume, and even if they do, if the applicant does not answer their email then the applicant must simply be busy with other offers.
Of course, for authenticity purposes, it would be better not to share this methodology here, where some people might read it and be tipped off.
But given that I am not certain that I am doing things right, and haven't run an experiment in the social sciences before, while at the same time I've heard many people here report on experimental methodology, I thought I would run this methodology past the HN crowd. What do you think? Is it scientifically well-constructed? Is it possible for it to show an A/B effect?
Short of literally reusing people's real resumes with a fake image, I don't know of any way to improve this proposed methodology.
-> Shall I run the experiment?
-> Is there anything I can do to improve it?
-> Would the results be meaningful in either case? (If it does show a statistically significant deviation in email-back percentages, and if it doesn't.)
Thanks for any thoughts.
The reason I don't like that study as much is because it's about people's names. But people's names do in fact reflect the level of education of their families, and in an extreme case they can choose a new name if they want. The poster we're reading about, for example, is called "Richard Smith". (Whether by birth or a name that he adopted doesn't really matter.) I like names. If on a dating site I were given, sight unseen, the chance to view an Octavia or a Hermine I would choose it over any Susan or Latisha. Because it seems to me much more likely that Hermine would be educated and interesting.
Does this make Hermine a racial name?
Why couldn't Hermine (or Octavia) be black? In fact they could.
So I would say that the effect of a person's name, and a picture showing them as black, are, as this blog post already shows, somewhat orthogonal. Richard Smith isn't a "black name", but this poster had a black experience.
It's also quite important to point out that parents have almost complete choice over what to name their children. As some linguist pointed out, it's one of the few times that people get to name something (someone) in the world!
So I don't like it as a signal. A picture is much more pure. And also not something anyone can change.
Finally, in my case I'm specifically interested in programmers and tech. So my small "study" would be very targeted.
I'm still very interested if anyone has any comments about the methodology. I've never done any social science research before (well not formally anyway), and I'd be very curious if I'd be making some mistake in the methodology that I could avoid.
Good point -- I hadn't thought of that. But wouldn't the resume reflect the actual education of the applicant? Maybe the discrimination against names you describe is cultural, which could also be of interest in the tech world ("this guy wouldn't fit in with us").
I did see a study on the success rates of people that had changed their names to be less "ethnic," and it was high, but of course there's a self-selection problem, since someone would have to be a very motivated person to change their name to get ahead.
One disadvantage of using pictures is that it makes race immediately apparent, and people might deliberately change their behavior to not appear racist. Maybe they offer an interview to the black candidate to check off a box on the HR form, even if they'd never hire him/her.
Anyway, just some thoughts -- I'd love to see the results of the study here on HN if you manage to pull it off!
There are three major things entangled here:
> I thought it was normal to feel apologetic that I may have looked or seemed “threatening” to passersby, if I thought I invoked any feelings of fear or discomfort in my presence.
* Personal observation: people who move to SF, for reasons that I speculate to include _baseline niceness_, weather, and lack of generally bad things happening to them become after a while really socially, self-conscious, and apologetic. This spikes, but never really goes away, until you go somewhere else, and get hit by a stranger.
Except...
* There is a massive homeless problem in SF, compounded with mental illnesses, and visible behavioristic problems. Speaking strictly of personal observation, a homeless of a race do not hit one of the same race, which means all those white dudes? yeah, they've been shouted, and crapped at by persons of color.
* People are also, psychologically, can't reliably distinguish people of other races prior to knowing a few members of them personally for an extended period of time. This is not uniformally distributed. People who care about you matter. The average Joe down the street does not.
This checks the "why" on racism, and judgement. Which leads us straight into...
* There is a structural incentive problem in how information ecologies replicate themselves, and feeds to action under conditions of visible racial differences, that is best summed up here: https://i.imgur.com/yjfiYG2.png . Essentially, ideas which cause anger, and anxiety have a higher delta-replication rate, than every other piece of information any human being can imagine up, ever.
* This article of yours? Yeah, it's essentially tapping into the same reaction by referencing it (as evidenced by the number of comments here). This is counter to your own verbalised preferences. The two most notable summaries of this effect can be found at: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc This Video Will Make You Angry * http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/
For this reason, here is what you can, actually, do about stuff:
* Get off the toxoplasma. Unfollow people who replicate stuff, which makes you feel compelled to react to hatred.
* IF you read something, which makes you feel hatred, ALWAYS, always check the source. In case of law, read the original statement made by court. In case of newsreports, why are you watching newsreports? see 1. Not enough? open up newsreports 5 years ago, and determine how relevant is whatever they are writing to the now-you.
* BE THE SYSTEMATIC CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD. Does writing " I felt like I had to say something. Anything" solves problems directly? No. Does it suddenly induces fear into >20K people? Heck yes. Does it also generates you traffic? Yes. (you see the incentive problem here?) But is it quality traffic, that will convert? Only to other fear-inducing things. Is this the sort of system you want to increase? If not, can you take that ~40 minutes of writing an article into planning? If not, can you code, and donate whatever you've made in that same 40 minutes? Both hacks at the joints of the problem, instead of escalating it.
We don't even know what the writer does in his spare time. He might be doing those things already.
"Being mistaken for another Black person at work"
This is common and should be expected by any minority anywhere if significant differences exist between how two groups identify their members. The reason is that intuitive parts of the brain work based on what input they've received so far. They generalize the patterns out of the data, especially relevant vs data to ignore. Then, they use that for classifying or reacting to new data. Further, what varies the most on Black people is different than what varies the most on white people. Both sides get used to focusing on details important in their area. Simply put, these people probably see very few Black people, look for different traits for identifying them, and therefore suck at differentiating Black people in a casual way (i.e. not focusing).
Just need more Black people in Silicon Valley to increase exposure. Then, this problem starts going away. Meanwhile, it's somethign that sucks a bit but isn't necessarily racism. Just how the mind works that forces a person to work to get noticed & remembered. Happens to me, too, since I intentionally look plain (but nice) to differentiate which people are worth my time. People even trip over me in stores sometimes because they can't remember they saw me. Unless I wear a hoodie: almost everyone, esp cops, sees me then haha.
"Being asked things like, “So, what’s it like being a Black guy in Silicon Valley?”"
May be good or bad. Many people are curious about others' experiences. Yet, despite this being a problem, he's writing an article on what it's like being a Black guy in Silicon Valley. He feels better getting it out of his system and possibly hopes to help others understand the perspective. Similar to why some ask. They can't ask but do tell.
"Feeling out of place when I can’t identify with certain pop culture references or cultural norms"
That's due to both location and race. It was very hard to keep up with the Black ones as a white minority since both the references and the language itself change so fast. I stayed confused by something even when I got a lot of it. Just nodded, grinned, or looked shocked like the rest. So, I relate to this one as a painful, social barrier that will persist unless he embeds a lot with white culture and activities as I had to do with Blacks. It will still persist but he'll have it easier since whites prefer people acting more like them. It's the opposite with Blacks, at least in the South, where they often get angry if whites imitate their culture.
"Being the most athletic person in a particular group, and having people say things like, “…of course it would be the Black guy”"
Black people have been telling me for years they're better at sports. All kinds of them young and old. This is one of those things, though, that I wonder if Blacks themselves put into white consciousness. I wondered it myself at one point as a kid thanks to them repeating it nonstop. Especially over basketball and boxing. I'm not sure how long or far Blacks have been saying it due to lack of broader data. Could be white sourcing, too.
"Feeling like I was chosen for certain photo/video opportunities at work and during other activities to feign diversity and acceptance"
This one is more open for debate as it looks totally racist at first. Then, you have to think of all the lawsuits by Jesse Jackson et al where they look at number of Black people, what they make, what words people used, what relationships were like, and so on to argue for massive, financial damages. These events are probably the rare case but will be on media enough to put them into white, management's minds. You also look many Blacks pushing for affirmative action or voluntary quotas to "embrace diversity." With that backdrop, many will try to reduce liability, improve image, or both by hiring some more Blacks or other minorities. They'll also try to show it so people notice. So, this is another case where specific groups of Blacks and/or liberals in general act in a way that, combined with media and whites' own thinking, collectively increases odds Black people might be treated this way. I even warned them it would happen when I opposed most forms of affirmative action & associated liabilities.
Those being hired might be anything from "token hires" to the minority member among several qualified candidates. The latter isn't so bad but the former can make for very, bad situation. This dynamic sucks for all the races and any solution I've presented came with realistic objections from some party involved. One I promoted a long time ago a combo of blind auditions & performance reviews from third party along with, if even applied, quotas only for qualified candidates that resulted from auditions. Everyone, whether ideal candidate or not, will know they earned their place with race/gender having minimal impact. Tricky thing to promote for many reasons. Given that, it was extra-neat for me reading here about GapJumpers putting similar ideas in action. Time will tell...
"At a certain point in my life, I realized that I had no positive role models (let alone ones I could relate to), so I set out to become a positive role model for my siblings. I didn’t want them to have to resort to gangs, violence, or go looking for love to find ways to identify with others and gain acceptance. I wanted them to learn to love themselves, and learn to love & empathize with others."
Should've been the conclusion. This is exactly how the most awesome and successful Blacks formed in the down-trodden areas I was in. Probably most from any race if I thought about it more. Just was studying Blacks more as they were the majority. I just noticed, in hateful schools, there were people that were different. They treated whites as well as anyone else, judging on words and actions. Nothing could hold them back academically with some exceeding me with sheer determination & effort. Later learned their parents and role models, including some teachers, were probably the reason. So, I wish the man success on helping his siblings achieve greatness by teaching and showing them. Great stuff.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/ktla-anchor-apolo...
I just think learning to differentiate faces is just a function of experience and I don't read into it, and I hope others don't read into it when I make mistakes.
You've almost figured it out.
So either the cab drivers are lying and saying that line to every black person they encounter for some reason I can't fathom -- or they're being honest about their experiences.
"Being asked things like, “So, what’s it like being a black guy in Silicon Valley?”"
And yet you wrote a blog post to tell us what it's like. I read it because I was interested, but does my interest therefore mean that mean I'm actually part of the problem?
"Feeling like I was chosen for certain photo/video opportunities at work and during other activities to feign diversity and acceptance"
You probably were. That sucks, but it's one of those damned if you do/don't things. If they don't do it, somebody's going to accuse them of something.