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Norway (not-EU) borders Sweden and Finland (EU) and have an open border agreement. But of course it also has freedom of movement for EUians.

Northern Ireland should just pull out of the UK already and the whole island can return to being Ireland, and solve the problem with land borders.

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> Northern Ireland should just pull out of the UK already and the whole island can return to being Ireland, and solve the problem with land borders.

This idea wouldn't be as simple as it sounds if you account for the sociopolitical context. Today actually is a perfectly timed example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth#Controversies_and_...

There isn't a majority in either Northern Ireland nor the Republic for that to happen.

As an Irishman, I've always thought even of the nationalists up north as a different breed; their mentality is defined by what they're in opposition to. Toxic politics; everything is looking inward rather than forward.

We've had quite a lot of that in the rest of the UK as well.

> their mentality is defined by what they're in opposition to

A lot of the Irish define themselves, historically, in terms of opposition to the British.

The irish are more secure in their identity than the welsh or scots in my experience

That's a whole other kettle of fish :-D

I'm quite secure in my identity as a Scot and secondarily as a European. But yes, there are an awful lot of "proud Scot, but..." types; an affectation also known as the "Scottish Cringe".

Apart from being untrue, there is an affinity with the Welsh & Scots...

What does this even mean? "define themselves, historically". The nation, certainly but you are conflating disparate notions to project a stereotype.

Explain why the Irish are the largest naturalised community inside the UK?

conflating disparate notions?

If you put away the thesaurus, maybe it'd be easier to figure out what you're saying.

Of what relevance is Wales and Scotland, when the comparison was specifically between NI and ROI? Or indeed, what naturalisation has to do with with it?

op stated "A lot of the Irish define themselves, historically, in terms of opposition to the British."

Maybe you should read the thread before injecting your opinion.

What do you think "British" (/Britain) means? What do you think 'defining oneself historically' means, if anything? Are you Irish?

by op, do you mean my post? I'm accusing you of using unnecessarily obscure wording.

There are many ways to define oneself as an individual. I'm talking about how many Irish see their own country from a historical perspective.

If you doubted that even meant anything, then how could you conclude that I was "project[ing] a stereotype"?

so, you're not Irish then?

There are many ways to define oneself. "Defining oneself historically" is something Americans in South Boston do.

I'm not sure what you find confusing about "op stated "A lot of the Irish define themselves, historically, in terms of opposition to the British.""

The Irish aren't, never have been, opposed to Britain, Great Britain & North Ireland nor the United Kingdom.

Why do you care to know if I'm Irish? An ad-hom in the making?

I've clarified above what I mean by "historically" - Do you have anything to add to this in the context of the post I was replying to?

> I'm not sure what you find confusing about "op stated"

I'm confused because by 'op' you seem to be referring to me...

> The Irish aren't, never have been, opposed to Britain, Great Britain & North Ireland nor the United Kingdom

"The Easter Rising (Irish: Éirí Amach na Cásca),[2]

also known as the Easter Rebellion, was an armed insurrection in Ireland during Easter Week,

April 1916. The Rising was launched by Irish republicans to end British rule in Ireland

and establish an independent Irish Republic while the United Kingdom was heavily engaged

in World War I. It was the most significant uprising in Ireland since the rebellion of 1798,

and the first armed action of the Irish revolutionary period."

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Rising

You're conflating 'The British' with British Rule. Two very very different things.

also, no need to educate me on my history my friend. I understand it deeply but I'm not defined by it. As are the vast majority of my countrymen.

Whatever. Did you have a point after all?

> Whatever. Did you have a point after all?

Ahh, when you run out of ideas but can't stop talking. Nice.

You're right, I've no more ideas on what your point might be.

you can't stop, can you!

My point is pretty clear. The Irish don't hate the "british" because of historical matters. As much as you'd like to think otherwise.

Who said 'hate'? Now you'r just making stuff up.

By 'point' I mean what it has to do with the context of the thread: A comparison of mentalities between NI and ROI.

I'll respond as I like TYVM.

again, you're out of context... ""A lot of the Irish define themselves, historically, in terms of opposition to the British." "

you really can't stop, can you?

You raised you objection, then failed to add any substance to it other than communicating that you disagree. No point, no new context.

Again, I'll reply as I like. Step off as you like.

> A lot of the Irish define themselves, historically, in terms of opposition to the British.

I think any opposition that existed was to British military _occupation_ and economic exploitation of Ireland, not opposition to the British per se.

In addition Irish identity is much richer and deeper than simply opposing something or someone. I recommend a brief dip into the rich literature and music of the island so that you don't make this embarrassing error again.

> Irish identity is much richer and deeper

In context of why I made such a comparison: Is NI history not deep?

> so that you don't make this embarrassing error again

You missed the point, so please don't pile smugness on top of it.

> so that you don't make this embarrassing error again.

I really don't think that condescending tone was needed, regardless of parent's knowledge of the subject matter at hand, we're above that here.

When the OP's assertion was that Irish identity is:

1) nothing more than being opposition 2) inherently racist (focussed on being anti another ethnicity)

then I will take your rebuke and downvote as evidence of either a lack of thought or a deliberate attempt to insult.

Stick to Scotland friend. You may actually know something about it.

> inherently racist

You're just throwing around that accusation to justify bad behavior. It's easy to attach any label when you have such loose definitions ("anti" "ethnicity").

> nothing more than being opposition

You added "nothing more", which plays the same role as the "just" in "just a theory" - turning a statement in context into a straw-man.

> then I will take your rebuke and downvote as evidence of either a lack of thought or a deliberate attempt to insult

Isn't that convenient. I take the lack of content in your post as evidence of the same.

> Stick to Scotland friend. You may actually know something about it.

Sticking with the condescension, eh?

If you know something about this topic, why not show us?

>There isn't a majority in either Northern Ireland nor the Republic for that to happen.

Here is the opinions of the Irish and Northern Irish people on the issue of unity within the past year: http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2015/1104/739633-prime-time...

Given that Northern Ireland is now majority Catholic I would imagine Catholic unionists would be very against Brexit and many Don't Knows are now in the UI camp. I don't know what the new figures would be but I'll love to seem more polling on this post Brexit referendum.

Plus the subsidies. For a very long time, and even now, NI is/was not as poor as RoI

> As an Irishman, I've always thought even of the nationalists up north as a different breed; their mentality is defined by what they're in opposition to. Toxic politics; everything is looking inward rather than forward.

This is very true. It might not be true everywhere but many of us find the Northern Irish to be a different breed. I can see the NI identity potentially resolving itself into a separate country proper.

To be honest this may go back much further than any English/Irish conflict. I remember reading in a historical fiction derived from the Annals of the Four Masters about Brian Boru becoming the High King and the clear differences observed between Southerners and Ulster, and that's over a thousand years ago.

To non-Irish-folk: Yes, just like the North in Game of Thrones. The English, Scots and Irish alone have enough intrigue and violence to sate even George R.R. Martin!

Here's a tale from my clan that sounded quite GOT-like. Irish people are known for using colourful metaphors and this time it caught up with one of them.

Once upon a time a man was raiding cattle. Cows were money in those days and 'accidentally' collecting them from the valley of your neighbours was more or less irresistible for many a ruffian.

The cattle raider passed into the Forest with cow in tow to escape from any pursuers. It is ancient forest with great big tree trunks and everything to be seen is an ocean of green, maybe something like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/aapamire/4371421987/in/photost...

Newly confident in his new possession the thief comes to a glen, it is a long, deep, narrow valley. As soon as the cow makes an appearance the raider is surprised. He flees but is pinioned to the floor. Unbeknown to him, my relatives had been waiting for him at the other side of it.

"No!" he cries, "Sure it is only a head of cattle I were borrowing and don't I have wife and child to feed or they shall go hungry this night. God forgive me! My wife will be so angry if I don't have my hand on the door by midnight. I swore an oath I'd be back this evening! Please show a man mercy!"

My relative replied: "By God this is serious! Sure you can not be breaking oaths!"

So they took him back to his cottage and nailed his hand to its door.

The whole island of Ireland was never an independent state. Partition was a condition of the Independence treaty. Ireland as a political entity has only ever been the 26 counties. According to this study from 2013, only 15% of the population want a United Ireland. This may have been affected by the South's relative economic problems at that point, but as far as I know, there has never been a majority in favour of a united Ireland in the North.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2013/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2....

It was 32 united counties from 1800 to 1920.

Yes - but it was part of the UK then at the time - not an independent state an only partly had its own parliament during that time.

No, after the act of Union it was part of the United Kingdom of Ireland and Great Britain, ruled by the British crown and Westminster. Prior to that it was actually a distinct political entity (The Kingdom of Ireland) with its own parliament in Dublin, but ruled by the British crown.

Ok it wasn't independent but my point was that it was united.

sorry, my first comment was inaccurate, Ireland was a dependent but united political entity prior to the Act of Union in 1801. I've corrected it now.

Well, prior to the establishment of the Kingdom of Ireland (which, for the gallery, was essentially an Anglo-Norman puppet state of the Kingdom of England and Wales), Ireland was essentially a independent state, except without any kind of strong central government (though there were repeated attempts to turn the largely ceremonial high-kingship into one), but held together by a shared culture and legal system: a nation, but not a state. I guess the closest modern example would be Somalia.

>> Northern Ireland should just pull out of the UK already and the whole island can return to being Ireland

From what I recall, NI is not in a position to fund itself without UK assistance. Ireland would have to foot that.

The bigger issue is that such a move (a united Ireland) would spark a new round of terrorism and instability.

OK I don't disagree that an independent NI is a slightly strange proposition that may make less sense and have less support than other European independence movements. However people frequently tout the "<region> runs at a deficit, therefore it cannot be independent" argument. Basically the vast majority of the developed world runs a deficit including the two countries we're talking about here (UK and Ireland) and large diverse non-EU economies (USA, Japan, France) as well as medium-to-small Western/Northern European countries (Finland, Sweden, Netherlands, Luxembourg) which are otherwise considered successful or desirable. There's probably very good arguments to be made either way but I don't think this is one of them.

It is my understanding that a large percentage of NI are employed in the UK civil service. The ROI is simply not in a position to provide the same, so they would become unemployed. Its not so much that it does or doesn't run at a deficit, its that it would be a major cost to ROI when ROI already is still dealing with its own financial problems and people are already unhappy about the additional taxes and charges the government keep trying to introduce.

> However people frequently tout the "<region> runs at a deficit, therefore it cannot be independent" argument.

An argument frequently trumpeted by the No campaign in 2014 during the Scottish Independence debate with their unionist press lackeys trotting out the same tired old "too wee, too poor, too stupid" articles that were debunked time and time again.

Deficits aside, economically speaking. these people have no imagination. Who's to say Scotland would continue with the same ruinous economic policies as implemented by Westminster, our priorities are somewhat different.

There has been much talk of a big cut in that assistance - it is being seriously discussed now. Plus the setback in UI and cross-border job opportunities by a hard border. Combined, this will flame hardline republican sentiment (left of Sinn Fein), as well as loyalist discontent with setbacks. This would cause increased military presence from England, which would add more fuel to the flames, and things could easily spiral back into violence once again. Historically, these things tend to flame up every few decades in Ireland.

From a British perspective - at least they'd be angry at someone that wasn't us?

Once Scotland goes, NI should be a near certainty to follow - leaving us and probably Wales (who seem to have a better grasp on the costs of needing to balance the books alone).

> Wales (who seem to have a better grasp on the costs of needing to balance the books alone).

Ahem. Wales is a net beneficiary of the EU to the tune of hundred of millions of pounds per year and they voted for Brexit. Something tells me the Tories in Westminster won't exactly be tripping over themselves to send a ton of more cash to the valleys with a potential economic downturn on the horizon due to Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/wales-...

Alternatively, ROI should accept NI too?

NI is actually a pretty expensive place to run.

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