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I signed mine with my new hire paperwork. I had just flown across the country to take the job. Am I supposed to say no when my family had just spent a ton of money to move?

Shady when companies do this, IMO

Bring it up in the interview process, particularly when talking to HR, etc. You don't have to make a stand right there but at least find out what's typically in an employment contract (a very reasonable question to ask even in an early interview). Then later on when they're trying to close the deal make it a negotiable thing just like salary, etc.

I asked about something similar at the offer stage: invention disclosure and assignment. I asked several times and the recruiting team told me that "everything I needed was on the website [where the job offer and the related terms were]." I even asked "No, I mean the forms you'd ask me to sign upon accepting the offer when I'm hired." Still nothing.

Sure enough, as soon as I accept the offer I'm presented with exactly what I was looking for on that very same website.

Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations.

> Somehow I think "never attribute to malice ..." doesn't apply to corporations.

Indeed. Refusing to disclose terms until you've started the job is abundant evidence of them being employee-hostile and manipulative.

Why didn't you tell them that you wouldn't take the job if they couldn't present you with the paperwork that they would be requiring you to sign?

And if they presented extra paperwork later, why wouldn't you hold them to that?

I can't speak for this case, but the answer is often "you found out after you travelled across the country and turned down other job offers, and may be waiting for repayment of moving expenses".

Yes, a person could try to get this sort of thing in writing and sue for damages incurred, but they'd still be unemployed and loaded with expenses in the meantime. There's a lot of freedom to push this kind of thing because there's too much legal overhead to fight it.

Perhaps I should have. I was assuaged by the fact that they provided specific "exceptions from copyright" (e.g. open source projects that I have and will continue to contribute to).

Lesson learned on my part, for sure.

Isn't it customary to sign contracts etc before moving? I have never even quit a job before having all the paperwork finalized for the new place.

This is really important for people to understand. It's insane to agree to work for someone without at least seeing the contract. To put is a bit more clearly, compensation is also part of the contract. Would anyone accept a job without knowing what the compensation is? I suppose if you are desperate...

Personally, I love most non-competes. They give you leverage in salary negotiation. While the non-compete might be non-negotiable, your salary is. Or a signing bonus. Or a parachute. If someone wanted me to sign a 1 year non-compete it would be expensive -- enough to allow me to write free software for that time. But if they are willing to pay, I would be extremely happy to sign.

The key is what to do when people aren't willing to pay. You have to evaluate your situation. As they say "beggers can't be choosers". Try not to get in the "beggers" situation, but be realistic. If you need the job now, sometimes that's what you have to do. Just make sure to set aside enough cash to carry you through the non-compete.

As a side note, my current benefactor demands neither a non-compete nor an inventions agreement. They encourage me to write free software and even allow me to free up things I write at work. They don't complain when I hole up for a week to really understand the technology we are using. I give them a pretty big discount over what I would demand from someone who didn't give me these things. I think it's important to communicate what I value. I sometimes read advice for salary negotiation as "take what you can get and give nothing back because that's how you'll be treated". I hate that.

At will employment. The new contract can be dropped off at your desk this afternoon for any reason. You can quit, or argue (aka fired for argumentativeness), or refuse to sign (fired for insubordination).

It is highly confrontational for a company to do this. The company is stating its willing to ruin your life over nothing, literally nothing, just for the sadistic joy of it, so you better be able to ruin the company as best you can, to keep up.

It's pretty much the same issue, though. If you are desperate for a job, then of course sign whatever you need to. But if you're not, don't sign.

One fairly large company I worked with tried to pull this nonsense on me. HR sent me a new contract to sign (which had unfavourable terms). I told them that I was already under contract and unless they were terminating my contract, I was not going to sign another one. They told me that I would be fired if I didn't sign it. So I marched down to the legal department and said, "HR tells me I will be fired if I don't sign this contract. Is that really what you want to do". Half an hour later I had an apology from HR. At least in Canada (where I worked) forcing someone to sign a contract under duress (being threatened with losing one's job) makes it not a contract. Legal knew very well that this was leading to lawsuit that they would lose and made the right choice.

I'm not saying it will always work. I was once sued by an employer for breach of contract when I left despite following the terms of the contract perfectly. Some people/companies are just nasty. I was lucky in that my new employer had thousands of lawyers on staff and threw a couple their way, making my problem disappear.

You need to understand your position. Things are not always fair. You will not win every battle. However, it is a good idea to avoid these kinds of things from the beginning if you can. Not every company is run like this. Vote with your feet. Work for companies that have good policies. And when you find one and you feel you can trust management, do what you can to stay there and make it successful. Good companies exist.

And a company with this practice is going to have a hard time hiring anyone who can find a job elsewhere.

Still leads to a bunch of people getting screwed. Even if those people aren't good engineers, they still don't deserve to be fucked by the company.

That's true of course. I was just remarking that baiting with a reasonable contract and then switching to a bad one looks, from an employee standpoint, much much worse than originally being offered a bad contract.

I seriously research any job or contract or freelance offer before I take it, and things like this don't hide.

> I bought a house. The amount of paperwork that I signed without reading was probably around 100 pages.

I bought a house and read every single one of those pages. No change possible--walking was only alternative. Was in too deep and didn't want to lose the house, the earnest money and my time. I understand the note and deed, but didn't get any other benefit.

In EULA-like situations where you "can't" negotiate the contract, it's not clear to me whether reading it is a good move, game-theoretically.

Yeah, exactly this. I read my first contract ever really closely, saw it had a bunch of potentially onerous terms, then signed it anyway because I had no negotiating leverage and it effectively quadrupled my income.

What I've heard from a lot of WA devs is "yeah, if it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'll just move to California." It's nice that option exists, but it's kind of silly that "defensive relocation" is something people even have to consider.

"yeah, if it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'll just move to California."

I don't think this works. You'll still get sued in Washington.

Yeah, no, not at all. Or actually, it's not that simple. Many non-competes are specific to a region in the hopes of making them less likely to be ruled overly broad. Furthermore, if you work and live in California, the WA court can be found not to have standing, and the company can't bring suit in California because pretty much all non-completes are considered void there.

How does that work if you sign a non-compete for a job in california with a company registered in delaware?

I still think it is nice to know what you have agreed to. But I hear you.

> This feels like a problem that is getting amenable to a technological solution.

While it's certainly possible to apply some technology to this solution, it actually amazes me that people don't spend more time reading and negotiating these.

If you're an engineer, your employment contract is worth literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. The idea that you wouldn't at least read and understand the whole thing yourself (and seek professional counsel if necessary) is ludicrous and a terrible way to live.

One sneaky thing which companies do is only giving you paperwork (including a non-compete) on your first day of work. During negotiation, I always insist on seeing a copy of what I'll be asked to sign before agreeing to take the job. Anyone who refuses this is trying to pull something over on you.

>If you're an engineer, your employment contract is worth literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I am an engineer. I don't have an employment contract, I have a piece of paper that has my salary and says I'm an at will employee. Ive never had anything else, literally every job - salary and "you are at will". Benefits have changed all the time with no notice. What kind of contacts are you guys getting?

I meant "employment contract" in the sense of the dozens of pages of legal documentation you'll typically sign, including stock agreements, non-competes, etc.

Never signed anything other than the aforementioned piece of paper (2 sentences) and a NDA. Unless you work for a start up with 5 employees and no HR the HR Dept has its set benefits and forms you must sign, those are not negotiable, only salary is. Typically you are in a standard benefits group depending on the date you were hired and if you are full time or part time. Example: benefits group 3, everyone in that group has the same benefits, you surely aren't going to negotiate special treatment.