Comment by Normal_gaussian | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Normal_gaussian | Hacker News Reader

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Normal_gaussian

I am British, and I socialise with a whole host of young Brits who voted leave. A whole host of educated Engineers - software, civil, mech. A handful of NQT's, nurses, vets, doctors, and then a spattering of assorted jobs at large companies from banks to telecoms to charities to sales.

These are people I talk to one on one about all kinds of different issues - mostly philisophocal, rarely political - and they all had a few small things in common with the EU debate:

* a certainty that the UK is dying. There is less and less value here, and continuing with the current setup spells for a long slow death.

* an outright distrust of the political class and the media class. Most can cite cases where they have been outright knowingly lied to in ways most wouldn't realise.

* a feeling of betrayal by those screaming remain and insulting anyone who disagrees. These are people who were often close friends who just weren't the kind to get into the discussions we enjoyed.

So the obvious thing for these people to do? Vote leave. We can start the fight now and possibly survive, or delay it and definitely die. Why didn't they talk about it? They did. Just in places where there is no audience, only participants.

> Why didn't they talk about it? They did. Just in places where there is no audience, only participants

Isn't it interesting how many forms of public forums are not providing a greater venue for the exchange of ideas? As you implied, because of the one sided vitriol and group think on many public social media platforms, it tends to lead to suppression of dialogue.

As a professional, I am very worried about a ill-advised comment on social media having lasting consequences for my career. So I tend to avoid anything controversial.

For brexit, I've certainly held my tongue for fear of being permanently branded a racist by my colleagues. Chilling, when you think about it.

because of the one sided vitriol and group think

I can assure you, the vitriol was two-sided. Remain campaigners against Leave voters, Leave campaigners against non-British EU citizens.

That is very much two one sided situations.

Social capital is a form of intangible value, as is cultural capital. The "technical middle class" (not my terminology) in the UK is usually described as relatively lacking both of these things for a group of its economic status: "Members of the class report the lowest number of social contacts of any of the classes, though these do tend to be high status, probably mostly other professional experts. It is relatively culturally disengaged with both highbrow and emerging culture." (Wikipedia)

From what you say I'm guessing you don't see the service sector as a viable form of "value" in the UK's economy, and maybe you also don't think of culture (creativity in the arts, or heritage and museums) as a form of renewable and intangible value? Whether that can support the UK entirely is another matter.

It's also a matter of socialization in the sociological sense. This is a fascinating concept for the slightly alienated among us to consider(!), even if you disregard what sociologists do with it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization

The arts are a source of renewable and intangible value. This is well known and a cornerstone of the life I live. I would list my own interests but it would be largely masturbatory to do so.

Unfortunately the growth and sustenance of British culture is largely hamstrung by the London centric governance of the last forty years. In many ways the entire brexit can be seen as an anti-London situation (everywhere but London and Scotland vote out, Scotland are on the SNP line who are anti-London).

Know this. The best and the brightest all left the county I grew up in. They are told by their new peers that they should look down upon the places they came from.

There should be no surprise that when my peers write verse it doesn't dream of home or that when they colour canvas it doesn't reveal our fells.

But they will accompany to the local great garden, and sit upon the grass, and talk of love, confusion, hope, and futures.

I hope that you're really happy of the outcome of your vote. You destroyed uk and global economy, even if you still Don't realise it. A nation with narrow minded people that cannot understand the simple consequences of their actions will not have the most happy outcome.

> I hope that you're really happy of the outcome of your vote. You destroyed uk and global economy, even if you still Don't realise it. A nation with narrow minded people that cannot understand the simple consequences of their actions will not have the most happy outcome.

Get a grip.

Has the UK economy been destroyed? No, the FTSE 100 dropped 3.15% on Friday, reacting to temporary uncertainty, and is up 1% on last week.

European markets fell far more, reflecting the fact they have more to lose from an acrimonious Brexit than the UK does.

What is narrow minded about voting to leave an anachronistic, sclerotic, anti-democratic political union, to which the UK contributes more money than it receives back, and from which the UK imports more than it exports to?

In all likelihood, the UK will leave the EU, but retain access to the single market through the EEA. This will enable us to enter into free trade deals with the rest of the world, which we are not able to do as EU members. There is nothing narrow minded about that.

The problem with being in the EEA is that you get all the negatives of being in the EU (free movement of people and paying into EU funds), but have no votes on how the money is spent.

This is a vast oversimplification.

See this paper [1] from the ASI which sets out the benefits of EEA membership over being a full member of the EU.

[1] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution

3.15% in a single day while it triggered a massive destruction of European stock markets. The pound arrived to 1.33$, it was never at that level since 1985. 2000 people are being relocated from Morgan Stankey to Dublin or Frankfurt. Pretty much all the other banks are following the same plans. The financial services sector contributes for around 11% of the whole government tax income. Car industry is heading in the same direction. Even worse the uk won't secure any trade deal with Europe because the will want to discourage other nations to follow the same path. The damage to the uk and global economy will be huge, comparable to the 2008 crisis if not even worse. If someone doesn't get it I have all the rights of calling him narrow minded.

> 2000 people are being relocated from Morgan Stankey to Dublin or Frankfurt.

Sensationalist nonsense. Banks are considering long-term options for the worst case scenario if the UK leaves the single market. That is unlikely to happen.

> Even worse the uk won't secure any trade deal with Europe because the will want to discourage other nations to follow the same path.

The EU needs free trade with the UK more than UK needs it with the EU. The EU cannot afford to freeze the UK out.

> In all likelihood, the UK will leave the EU, but retain access to the single market through the EEA. This will enable us to enter into free trade deals with the rest of the world, which we are not able to do as EU members. There is nothing narrow minded about that.

You realize that most of the trade deals for the UK will not be favorable at all, right? As you mentioned, the UK has a negative trade balance.

If you voted for leave, you voted for the balkanization of Europe, and possibly the UK itself. History has proven time and time again that this is a bad and short-sighted idea (India/Pakistan partition, former Yugoslavian republics, Middle East, etc). It wouldn't surprise me if Canary Wharf suddenly relocated to Germany.

Actually negative trade balance allows you to get better terms than reverse. The country that export more has more to lose from tariffs and benefits more from lower rates.

As per the article the people that voted leave didn't really care about the consequences because they are at the bottom of the barrel already. So of course, they are not nice to fuck it up for every body else, but hey, they didn't setup a referendum in order to stay PM.

Parent is on topic and gives a slightly different perspective. I assume each of his friend had at least additional argument that probably align with one the messages of the Leave campaign as with the argument he listed most people would just stay home and not vote.

What is done is done, you better understand what those guys think because you will need their vote.

I think the parent post did give reasons for his vote, rational and reasonable ones. I disagree with them mostly and voted a different way, but if one vote in one small country can destroy the global economy then it was in pretty bad shape anyway. Lehman Brothers would not have caused meltdown in a financially secure global system.

We must respect our democratic outcome and turn it to the best advantage of everyone.

Perhaps a more democratic Europe. It seems a goal we can get behind.

Edit: ok he did not say how he voted only "friends of his".

I didn't like the tone of the reply I gave to a sister comment of lifeisstillgood's comment and have since deleted it. In it I pointed out that I had not specified whether I had voted, or who for. This is what his edit refers to and was, like the rest of the comment, an unnecessary level of pedantry.

Of course I voted the same way as the friends I had been discussing this with for years.

Rereading this again, I am still annoyed by the pedantry argument. We try to have discussions and conversations here, try to be precise to make that process clearer - and dismissing such attempts is not helping the goals. So please, don't make throw away dismissals. And be ways of assuming people of course vote the same way as their friends.

You realize the same people predicting the destruction of the British economy all had their fingers in the tanking of the Greek economy and/or predictions of growth that were blatant lies? See eg IMF Greek debt sustainability analyses and their continued wild exaggerations of sustainability. So there's plenty of reason to doubt such predictions or assume they are politically motivated.

Recall how EU/Merkel treated Greece, a country too entangled to leave, and note Brown's decision to keep the pound sterling was prescient. That creates plenty of skepticism of the value of the EU.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2016/cr16130.pdf

I posted clear facts that prove behind any reasonable doubt that uk economy will plummet. You can do all the predictions that you want, but if these are not based on facts then I will label them as fantasies and wishful thinking.

The thing is, as a result of not being in the euro zone, the same sort of situation that Greece is in could not happen. In a way, it's really a disaster to have a monetary union without a fiscal union.

However, the main benefit of the EU is the single market, both in terms of goods locally as well as leverage for negotiating trade deals with other, non-European countries. That's going to be what hits them the hardest, because they won't get such a good deal, especially outside the EU

LoL. You could say exactly the same thing about the Remain campaign. Especially if you put yourself into e.g. the Greek position.

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