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Comment by stickac | Hacker News Reader

You are completely ignoring the fact that the cost of living is much higher in Zurich than the rest of Europe. (For example, the rent is around 10 times higher than in Prague). But after-all, you are a recruiter, why would anyone expect you to provide unbiased information, right?

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I'm the one that downvoted you. Rather than simply insulting s3nnyy, pull out some numbers to justify your statement. I suspect s3nnyy is not hiding information, but rather saying the quality of life is worth it.

However, it looks like the numbers are pretty comparable. In Germany a software engineer will average 47,500[0] euros a year. judging by this answer[1] I'm guessing your take home is going to be about 28,000 euros (2,333 euros a month), meaning about a 40% tax rate.

According to the same website a software engineer in Zurich will make 96,500[2] CHF. Using a swiss salary calculator, your take home in euros is 71,436[3] (5,953 euros a month).

Finally, comparing the cost of living, is clear to see that Germany is 50% cheaper[4], but you're making 150% more in Zurich. While my numbers may be the wrong averages to compare, it looks like Zurich is at least pretty comparable.

[0] http://www.payscale.com/research/DE/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

[1] https://www.quora.com/Is-45000-euros-per-year-considered-a-g...

[2] http://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

[3] http://www.lohncomputer.ch/en/home.html

[4] http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...

One notable thing here is that even if the proportions are the same, in the end the absolute amount of money you are putting in your savings every month is higher. Or, in other words, if you're going in vacation in a less expensive country, your purchasing power is doubled.

96,500CHF is also a fairly conservative estimate. If you work at e.g. Google, you can reasonably expect twice that amount after 2-3 years working there (factoring in bonuses and stock). The tax rate is also lower compared to Germany, especially when you reach larger sums of money.

My only comment is that the proportions aren't actually the same :).

In Zurich you're netting three times what a German software engineer makes, but everything is only twice as expensive.

The vast majority of software developers in Switzerland will never, ever make 190'000 CHF a year.

I don't know what's wrong with lohncomputer.ch, but I get 400 CHF more in net-salary than what they calculate.

Yeah, I think I forgot to select Zurich as the Canton of residence. Either way though, that helps my case.

Are you sure about the rent? I rented a 2 bedroom, with windows on 3 sides, next to a park and public transport, and a large balcony with BBQ, for 2 months (so short term let, higher rates), 20 minutes by tram from my office near Seefeld, for 1,500 CHF/month.

The landlady did keep my deposit (sorry, "had a professional cleaning done for the exact amount of the deposit", and sent me the detailed list as proof in German which I do not speak), bringing that to 2,250 CHF/month. A quick back of the envelope on real estate inflation since then brings me to around 2,500 CHF/month (1,700 CHF/month if you ignore the deposit trick).

That's not as cheap as a small town in Europe but it's quite cheap, I think, for a major international city and definitely when you take into account the starting salaries. Vaguely remembering, a graduate from a good university starting in strategy consulting could expect 90-110,000 CHF/year in Zurich vs 35,000 GBP (49,000 CHF) in London despite higher COL and higher taxes (same companies, which may or may not start with M or B). I have no idea about the numbers in San Francisco but I bet they are not so good either.

There's other issues with working in Switzerland if you come from Anglo-Saxon big cities, but COL isn't it if you are paid locally, unless you are dealing with an employer exploiting the unemployment rate in your home country to underpay you substantially (which is definitely the case with some French speaking companies in Geneva).

Anecdotally, the cleaning of rented flats in Switzerland is one step down from operating theatres. (While yes the keeping the deposit is a landlord trick the world over, the reasons given are very Swiss)

A friend of mine tried to keep their deposit by cleaning it themselves ("took two days and was spotless"). Because the landlady had not got a note from a cleaning firm saying it was clean, she literally could not rent it out again. And so charged my friend for the cleaning firm to come in. They did do a better job :-)

With regard to deposit scams, the system we have in the UK works pretty well - the landlord must put the deposit in a government-approved escrow scheme, which then decides any disputes over how much of the deposit should be held back (anecdotally quite fairly).

If the landlord fails to protect your deposit, and does so in what might be considered bad faith, a court will often order them to pay you 3x the deposit as compensation - so they all end up actually doing it.

See https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview

It's very simple in Singapore too, arguably simpler. You go to the Small Claims Tribunal (you can get a date within days, anecdotally), the Registrar decides the claim in a few minutes, and it costs you a total of 5 quid to file the claim. The whole thing takes a couple of weeks at most [edit: or a day - see 1].

I think something similar exists in Switzerland, but the (German) landlady correctly guessed that as a non-German-speaking foreigner, I would not take the time and expense to attempt it. Imagine attempting to contest the necessity of "dusting the sides of books on bookshelves" to an arbitrator in a foreign language...

[1] "For a tourist claim, the Tribunals may fix both the consultation/mediation and the hearing within 24 hours of filing of the claim." - https://www.statecourts.gov.sg/SmallClaims/Pages/GeneralInfo...

It's even simpler in Ontario: security/cleaning deposits are not allowed.

My guess is they would be factored into the rent price.

Zurich is not comparable to London, Berlin or Prag due to the fact that it is an order of magnitude smaller than most European cities. The diameter of Zurich is just 13 km.

The city itself is tiny and the "city center" is even tinier. This leads to the variance of the rent being very high: In the very center of town you might have to pay 1500 CHF for a 1-bedroom apartment, but if you can live also 5 km from the city center, you can have it way cheaper.

I am renting a 4-bedroom apartment for 1600 CHF (https://flatfox.ch/de/wohnung/8051-zurich-grosswiesenstrasse...) and I need around 12 minutes to get to Zurich main train station.

Ah that's Schwamendingen. Well known for a high foreigner percentage (37%). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwamendingen#Bev.C3.B6lkerun... (German).

To downvoters: please see my comment below. I am not against foreigners.

As a Swiss I also live in a high foreigner area. My sons are playing with children from Peru, Eritrea, Ecuador, Czechia, Sri Lanka and Italy. It's a really nice place to live, there are many children. Additionally, my wife is Asian.

If you worry about a high percentage of foreigners, you shocks probably stay away from Zurich or Switzerland in general … yep, Schwamendingen is apparently not where the rich live but it looks like a decent place with many green areas around and good public transport.

> 1500 CHF for a 1-bedroom apartment

That's cheap compared to London (zone 1).

And completely unrealistic in Zurich. Unless the price refers to a 1-room apartment (which in US English would be a studio, in Switzerland typically all rooms are counted for apt descriptions, a 1-bedroom apt is called a 2- or 2.5-rooms apt)

The last sentence of your comment, besides adding nothing to your argument, is way out of line for HN.

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