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Comment by markkat | Hacker News Reader

I've been working with MSCs for more than 15 years, mostly in stroke, and I agree completely. It's worth noting that this trial used donor cells, and that might be part of the reason they don't remain after a couple of months. There is evidence that autologous cells persist longer, likely because they aren't swept up by immune rejection.

What we and others have found is that age of the donor inversely correlates to their therapeutic potential. For that reason, I founded Forever Labs, Inc. http://www.foreverlabs.co/

We bank young MSCs so that they can be preserved for therapy later in life. I banked my own two months ago.

We prefer bone marrow MSCs as the BM also contains blood progenitor and stem cells, whereas adipose tissue does not.

*We are fast expanding and raising; email in bio. ;)

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If you banked your cells today at the age of 30, how much therapy can be hypothetically produced from that in the future?

Is it a store that depletes as you use it? Or can banked stem cells be replicated to create more reserves?

Different therapies will likely require different numbers of cells, and most clinical trials using MSCs involve preliminary expansion of the cells. We store multiple aliquots of your cells so that only a portion may be thawed at a time.

We don't expand the cells at this time, but will likely offer expansion services in the future.

Yes, by expanding you could create a very large reserve of cells.

Hm, this will make me sounds like a smart-ass, but ever since I learned about stem cells I was wondering why one does what you do. I mean, in some fundamental way it's kind of obvious. If your cells get damaged with age, why not store young cells and reintroduce them later? I realize that this isn't nearly as simple as I described, but the fundamental concept intuitively makes sense.

I'm glad to hear about your company. And I'd kind of proud that my intuition proved correct, even though I don't know much about the field.

Great minds think alike. ;)

Can people from other countries use your service (by traveling to one of your locations?)

At what (maximum) age would the max potential benefit be achieved from harvesting? (ie, I assume it doesn't make sense for an infant to have this procedure, but assuming it's available throughout one's life, when would be the optimal time to do it?)

>Can people from other countries use your service (by traveling to one of your locations?)

Yes.

>At what (maximum) age would the max potential benefit be achieved from harvesting?

Functional data of cells harvested from donors of different ages shows much variability between individuals, but after about 40, a slow trend in decreased differentiation potential, proliferation, and other measures, appears. The decline depends upon the measure, but in general, suggests 20-40yo is the best window, and closer to 20 is likely better. The functional decline continues, but seems to get steeper around 60. Between 70-80, some studies report that the numbers of stem cells start to drop in addition to function. Here is a representative study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2398731/

I think you just landed yourself a customer :)

MSC benefits are fantastic at replacing lost or damaged cells, however they are not bio-rejuvenation in the sense of turning back the clock with younger cells, unless one were to bank one's own younger cells?

If that is true, it would be, in a sense, an early SENS hack.

Very interesting. Will contact.

Sounds great! :)

There has been some animal work that suggests transplantation may have that effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23967009 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25707248

There is much research to be done, but the technology to transplant young bone marrow stem cells to one's older self exists today.

To be honest, that is part of my personal motivation. 'Autologous stem cell time travel' is low hanging fruit. We preserve the cells in multiple aliquots with the assumption that they might be used for multiple purposes, including expansion.

Couple questions:

- you're using bone marrow stem cells and using the same confusing acronym as mesenchymal stem cells. As someone who has been out of active research for several years, what is the difference? And are there other acronyms that are accepted?

- BM stem cells through bone marrow harvest used to be the order of the day for repopulating immune systems following irradiation of marrow for some leukemias. Nowadays the state of the art is that those stem cells can be harvested by fractioning whole blood, so you only have the hassle of a blood donation, rather than the serious and not to be sneezed at act of penetrating cortex to harvest marrow. Is there any reason you can't get this from whole blood?

Thanks

People often use 'marrow stromal cells' or 'mesenchymal stem cells' interchangeably as scientific terms (but of course, there is debate) that refer to adherent colony-forming multipotent cells. We use 'bone marrow stem cells' as a non-scientific term that includes MSCs as well as hematopoietic stem cells and endothelial stem cells.

>Is there any reason you can't get this from whole blood?

The blood harvest process uses a machine, takes a few hours, and requires the prior administration of a protein that stimulates stem cell proliferation and release into the blood. It is preferable for some procedures, but for those reasons, not for ours.

Doesn't bone marrow harvest require a general and tapping into the ilium? I would rather sit attached to a machine for a few hours.

No, just a local. I described the experience here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11832220

It's not bad at all.

Out of curiosity, what is the procedure for obtaining the stem cells? Can it be done locally, would there need to be travel to one of your locations?

We are based in Ann Arbor, MI. We are currently opening operations in the Piedmont of NC, and CA (SF) will follow soon after. More cities after that.

If you are interested, contact us, and let us know where you are at.

The procedure is done with a local anesthetic. The entire procedure takes about 15 minutes from lying down to standing up. It is drawn from the upper part of your pelvis bone on your lower back. The most discomfort is a muscle cramp-like feeling that lasts about 5 seconds upon the draw itself. Personally, I rated it a 3.5 out of 10, as did my wife. Consensus is 3-4. Our CEO is a self-professed wimp, and he said it was a 4. :) I'd much prefer it to a cavity being filled. There is no recovery, just a bruise-like tenderness at that exact spot for a few days. I walked across town for lunch afterwards.

Wow, that is amazing. This is a random question but do you happen to know the study the data on this graph comes from? Fascinating stuff!

http://www.foreverlabs.co/uploads/4/9/3/9/4939113/5557005_or...

I believe it is adapted from this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16041622 Thanks. I'll confirm and add an attribution, which should be there.

Is there a cancer risk associated with 'rogue' stem cells that aren't cleared from the body?

As mentioned in the article, transplanted MSCs have not been found to carry risk of tumor formation, and this is seen as one of their advantages.

Induced stem cells (IPS), or stem cells that are genetically modified may carry these risks, as there is overlap in the signaling mechanisms that maintain the undifferentiated state of stem cells, and that of tumor. In fact, stem cells naturally express more tumor-suppressing proteins as they age, which is thought to be a mechanism to prevent tumorigenesis resulting from damage accrued in the cells over time.

Cool! What is the cost for this procedure? I couldn't find this information on your site.

In MI/NC it is $3500 and $250/yr storage. Storage will remain constant, but there may be some market differences for the procedure.

That's totally more reasonable than I had assumed. Thanks!

Not sure if it's me, but your insightly* form seems to have a broken validation rule.

After I sign up for an information session, it says last name is mandatory even though I clearly filled it out.

FYI.

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