Comment by hsubi | Hacker News Reader

Comment by hsubi | Hacker News Reader

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Is it just me or does anyone find these type of groups too career oriented? Don't get me wrong, I am a female dev and I'm all for equal opportunity and working towards supportive environment for any gender or non-gendered, sexual orientation or no orientation. I don't really find these organisations really that helpful in bringing everyone together. I'm a nerd by nature before I knew computers existed and becoming a coder just came naturally to me. Obviously it's not because I'm unique and amazing. I just grew up in an environment with a lot of freedom as a child so I wasn't limited to think or act in a certain way. Anyway I wouldn't be comfortable in a group like wwcode because looking at the blurbs on the site it's just too career oriented. I wouldn't fit in at all but that doesn't mean I don't have the same problems these women have. Just because my sex is female I get treated differently even though I don't necessarily feel either female or male inside and I'm a pure thoroughbred nerd. I don't feel like climbing the career ladder because I enjoy being the lowly dev as long as there's a bit of freedom in how I solve problems and problems are not too terribly boring. All this, yeah you're a woman, yeah you deserve to get promoted etc kinda puts me off a little bit. I'm sure it's all with good intentions but if I'm feeling like this (a woman) imagine all those males who feel threatened by us. That's why I think these type of organisations, even though they have good intentions sometimes fall short at bringing everybody together. Because in the end we all need to come to an understanding and accept our differences to have a truly harmonious society. Also a side point about people comparing computing jobs with nursing or bin lorry operators. You are comparing apples and oranges. There are factors such as money, status, education levels to consider and are different. No one is blocked from becoming a bin lorry man/woman and as a kid no one dreamt of becoming one. They add a lot of value to the society though maybe even more than some developers but that's another discussion. Ok rant's over. :)

I feel like what they're doing is good in general but at the same time not my scene for a lot of the same reasons that you mentioned.

I suspect that women-oriented tech organizations lean that way because a large number of people who are women in tech AND who show up to meetups are women who don't have programming jobs and want them.

I also think there's a culture that pushes women into lead positions/managment because that will have a very obvious benefit to women who work in tech that work under them.

There's been a couple of initiatives that are more about the passion-side of tech that are oriented towards women. Double Union was a pretty good group for that when I was in SF.

As a programmer and nerd (who happens to be male but it's not really relevant in this context) I can relate to the expectations of career advancement meaning moving into management and away from the joys of diving deep into the technical aspects and solving technical problems.

I just want to be a great programmer, and would've loved a way to signal advancement of career without moving into people management or sales. Not so many work places support this beyond "senior developer/sw engineer", though.

This is a great post! My workplace is about 65/35 male / female and I have this crazy approach to working with women - treating them like normal people! I've never been the type to make sexualized jokes or engage in that stereotypical 'male' office behavior, so censoring myself has never been an issue but it's really just about not assuming things about someone before you actually know them.

It works pretty well, I've met men that aren't particularly experienced or talented as programmers and women - it's stupid and shortsighted to presume things about people you don't know.

It's interesting nursing is always brought up in these discussions. My wife is an RN on her way to being a NP and I've noticed that it's an incredibly hostile field for newcomers despite being dominated by women. Partly this is a result of abusive patients (usually men, but their families as well) - since the ACA hospitals are paid in part based on their patient satisfaction ratings and these people seem to assume nurses are there to be part concierge, part maid, part entertainer - not medical professionals there to monitor your health and keep you alive. A nurse can actually threaten her hospital's revenue streams if she responds in a hostile manner towards the sexual harassment they are likely to receive from patients and their families.

It's also a result of bullying from more senior-staff which takes the form of shitty patient assignments, undesirable work schedules, and a general hostility and casual disrespect from doctors, residents and PAs (this is where some more misogyny enters the picture).

Another interesting thing is the education required to enter the field. Nursing was once an occupation you could start with an Associates degree - in many areas that is no longer the case and a BSN is considered the minimum. At Johns Hopkins School of Nursing a solo BSN isn't even offered anymore, all new students need to enter on a BSN + Masters course path. The result has been a significantly higher barrier of entry into the field and I haven't heard any major news outlets discuss it at all.

Despite the prevalent attitudes towards the difficult work environment in Tech, I don't know any other field that offers the combination of high salaries and a relative disregard for your formal education. That seems to me incredibly empowering for individuals who are actually interested in the work and yet it's never really mentioned either.

Are you actually complaining about an increased societal focus and push for women's success at work? What exactly is "too career focused", and what would you rather see from assemblies of people who are trying to bolster women's place at work -- or would you simply rather not see such assemblies at all?

I am not saying that I would rather no see such assemblies at all. I know people have good intentions but I wish there is a bit more holistic approach to this rather than, it being just for a type of woman. It should include male, female, non-sex, people who wants kid and people who don't want kids, people with different aspirations in life, not necessary the traditional path set out such as school, work, marriage, kids etc.

beepboop2045 made a good point though about women working under female leadership. We do need role models. I just wish there are other paths being considered and talked about.

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