Comment by ygjb-dupe | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ygjb-dupe | Hacker News Reader

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If you are an engineer I would expect a better capability of root cause analysis than that. Your list of things there is entirely comprised of things that are largely outside of the control of individuals.

"Poor people are mostly poor because of the decisions they make."

* Drug addiction

Yes, a person can choose to use drugs. Usually the choice is made under intense peer pressure and at a young age. We won't let children under the age of 18 be bound by contracts, but we still stigmatize them with poor choices made when they were often younger than that. Once drug use becomes drug addiction, it is no longer a choice and is excruciatingly hard to break out without external help.

* poor budgeting

Yep, budgeting is important. It's a shame that this isn't given top billing from about grade 4 on. Budgeting isn't just about managing monthly income and expenditure, it's about forecasting, and understanding financial risk management. Unfortunately, at least in the US, the education system is pretty abysmal, and it appears to be difficult to actually get students through school in some parts of the country.

* gambling, alcoholism,, mental illness, etc, etc, etc."

These are actually all tightly linked to the word "illness". Gambling is often a learned behaviour that is linked with poor risk management and financial planning knowledge (see previous section on budgeting). Alcoholism is learned behaviour, that like gambling depends on poor impulse control, and addictive tendencies which are both physical and mental illnesses (or just illnesses once you get past the labelling stigma).

"Hard working people with not vices don't live in the slums and generally can support their basic needs."

Turn on the news, or better yet, read a couple of socio economic studies -- especially ones whose conclusions you find distasteful (it helps break your personal filter). This is flat out false - it is hard to support your basic needs when minimum wages are too low, finding full time work is hard, and there is a glut of skilled professionals who can't find work in their field, so they take up all the entry level jobs.

If you are actually an engineer you should be capable of composing a better comment than what you wrote here simply by thinking it through first.

Wow, this is extremely condescending with no actual backing information.

The fact of the matter is, people make bad choices. People who make bad choices are more likely to be poor. Lack of impulse control is extremely prevalent in poor communities. Like the GP, I was poor, I know poor people, and 95% of them are just shit at thinking long term.

The educational system fails people sure, but why does that mean we should give $1200/mo to people who do not have the necessary discipline to use it appropriately? CCTs have been used extremely effectively, and do combat this problem on a structural level.

There is actually a huge lack of skilled professionals in blue collar fields. We import mechanics at a ridiculous rate. This is true throughout a large portion of the world -- a SKILLED mechanic in Mexico can earn roughly the same wage as a skilled mechanic in the U.S...

It is hard to support your basic needs because you need to budget appropriately and you don't have extra money to spend -- but a large portion of poor people spend it anyway. I can't tell you how many of the people I know will drop $30 on some alcohol, drugs, club cover, concert, when they know that they'll be struggling to pay rent at the end of the month.

If you're actually an engineer you'll realize that most problems are multi-faceted and flat out telling people who have lived in a situation that some poorly researched secondhand analysis (i.e. the joke that is modern Sociology) is more relevant is absurd.

> The fact of the matter is, people make bad choices. People who make bad choices are more likely to be poor. Lack of impulse control is extremely prevalent in poor communities. Like the GP, I was poor, I know poor people, and 95% of them are just shit at thinking long term.

This is true of most Americans and is incredibly condescending. The poor are better with the money they do have than the middle class by a huge margin IME. The poor by and large don't blow their money on "fine dining" or new cars. They change their own oil. They don't spend over $100/month on cable TV packages. You can find exceptions to all those of course, but they prove the rule IME.

You're right, they blow their money on not-so-fine dining (my poor friends think McDonalds is cheaper than "Real Food").

Saying that it's true of most Americans obscures the systemic problem of scratch-offs and 40s on the weekend. And there is clearly a difference when you're doing these things with disposable income and doing it when you do not have disposable income -- one indicates a problem, and I don't think that it's an economic one.

I know middle income people spending their money on craft beer on the weekend and not participating in their company 401K. Or living effectively paycheck to paycheck. They may have "disposable" income, but only in the sense that they can float emergency spending on credit.

So yeah, there's a difference, but it's one of privilege.

Bad long-term financial decisions aren't exclusive to the poor.

You grew up poor. That doesn't mean your new middle-class peers had to learn the same lessons you did. They aren't middle class because they're smarter, more disciplined or have a better work ethic. They're middle class because they were born middle class.

Wanting to improve class mobility is one thing. Blaming the poor for not doing so on their own is another.

By "being born middle class" you mean that they were taught skills that allow them to be a contributing and self sustaining member of society.

Life isn't fair but those skills can be individually learned.

No. I don't. I mean that they had the most important safety net of all: Family with the will and ability to help financially.

I'm genuinely curious what financial life lessons you think a middle class kid is learning that a poor kid doesn't understand at a much deeper level.

My own experience is that (some) middle class kids succeed despite their own failures (dropping college classes before the grade becomes part of record stands out in my mind), and then attribute their success to their superior work ethic and intellect.

If most poor people fail to move up the class ladder, then in their same situation you're just as likely to fail. It's either that, or believe yourself somehow innately superior. I can't really think of a third option. It's like the adage about being surrounded by assholes.

You're right. Life isn't fair. But that doesn't mean the person cleaning my house isn't entitled to financial stability. I'm not religious, but I can't think of a secular version of "but for the grace of God".

Wow, this is extremely condescending with no actual backing information.

The person being responded to provided no actual backing information either.

The impact of poverty is more than just being poor, it can also affect your state of mind. There are studies that show people who have grown up in poverty have (on average) less self-control than those who grew up without experiencing poverty. I'll dig up the study so you can see it for yourself.

EDIT: There are a bunch of studies related to poverty and self-control in this article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-motivated-brain/201...

Does it matter in if it's the drug addicts fault that he is a drug addict or not?

The parent shared his opinion on if a basic income is going to help that person or not.

You could instead describe how you believe a basic income would actually help such a person instead of starting a discussion about morals.

Did you read about his/her background? Sounds very dismissing of that.

Yep, I too came from a poor background, went to university, then became quite successful and left that economic bracket behind. I work in software and security engineering, and coupled with good investments am in a very solid financial position. I have also spent a good chunk of the last decade studying and learning about the root causes of poverty and it largely cured me of my "I pulled myself up by my bootstraps" mentality I had as I started to escape from the mess that my childhood was.

I've been poor, too (spent years in my youth in a family on public assistance and in public housing.)

I too got an education (mostly in public policy), now work in software, and am now in far better socioeconomic status.

I don't find the GP's description of the causes of poverty accurate -- or even internally consistent, nor do I see GP's background (or my own) as some kind of privileged position to comment on the issue from.

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