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Comment by hnamazon123 | Hacker News Reader

> We should talk about this some more. Just be ready — you might find out a lot more than you bargained for.

Obviously Makinde's experience with the CEO is outrageous and abhorrent but race-related issues go very much beyond his personal negative experiences.

This is usually a one-sided discussion and therefore disingenuous to frame this as a discussion.

Any sort of questioning of a PoC talking about their experiences or their opinions on race is social suicide.

The incessant focus on identity politics and oppression olympics is extremely cancerous and antithetical to the fundamental ethos of a civic nation-state such as America.

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> Obviously Makinde's experience with the CEO is outrageous and abhorrent but race-related issues go very much beyond his personal negative experiences.

His personal experiences are what make the post concrete and therefore substantive. No one doubts that "race-related issues go very much beyond", but when you take a thread like this immediately into that "very much beyond", all you do is turn it into an ideological food fight.

Part of the art of thoughtful discussion is sticking to areas that one can actually say something substantive about. It's not impossible to make a more general comment on a post like this without pulling the discussion into pre-existing opinion and pre-existing emotion. But it's hard, and your comments aren't those of someone who's trying. Indeed, buzzwords like "identity politics and oppression olympics" are a sign that you're here for an ideological flamewar. That's not what this site is for.

What would a thoughtful discussion about this particular story look like?

What you're advocating for here in terms of policing the type of discussion and the types of people that can contribute to the discussion here (based on your assumptions about their personal experiences) is incredibly Orwellian. Obviously this is a private forum and you can do whatever you want but, seriously what you're saying is a bit absurd.

Also FWIW (not much to me, but probably a lot to you) I have personally experienced racism many times in my life.

I'm not sure, but FWIW here's what I think. A thoughtful discussion would involve suspending pre-existing political positions (or at least trying to), carefully avoiding weaponized rhetoric that mostly just stirs up pre-existing emotions for and against, and then reacting to something specific rather than something generic in the article or the comments.

For example, you could respond with some of your own experiences and how they have been similar or different. Your comment suggests that that would be interesting--especially if you would do so in a way that is respectful of others (e.g. others you disagree with) rather than judging them, because that tends to evoke more respectful and substantive responses.

(Btw I replied to this before you added the second paragraph. I don't think I'm being Orwellian, but I guess no Orwellian would.)

Ok, I see your point. That's fair.

Based on the fact that you don't want to talk about it, I'm guessing this is not an issue that you have to deal with personally.

"The incessant focus on identity politics and oppression olympics is extremely cancerous"

Yes, instead of dealing with race-related issues, which you admit exist, let's just tell the people who suffer that their POV is cancerous and they should shut up. That should fix things. -_-

> Yes, instead of dealing with race-related issues, which you admit exist, let's just tell the people who suffer that their POV is cancerous and they should shut up.

I think he has a point and you aren't giving him a fair go.

I've been hurt by a few women in my life. If I focused on those events in my life I would probably be a huge misogynist. Instead I was lucky to be given the good advice to let it go. I'm a little more guarded now is all.

Of course the opposite approach is usually taken by the PC crowd. They dwell on the issues. And it causes a lot of damage.

Now where I disagree with the parent is I think the article was quite good and balanced and not your typical PC article.

I don't think that's what he's trying to say. He's probably referring to the fact that unless you're black/poc/whatever you're not allowed to have an opinion; it's the blacks/pocs/whatevers that are making him shut up, not the other way around.

Well, unless you've actually experienced those things, your opinion really isn't valid.

If you've never been murdered, your opinion on whether murder is right or wrong really isn't valid?

I couldn't disagree more. Most people are capable of understanding historical context, and many are capable of empathizing.

For example, you don't have to have been poor to contribute solve poverty.

> For example, you don't have to have been poor to contribute solve poverty.

You DO need a level of understanding and context, though. You don't have to be poor to contribute to solving poverty, but you do need to have experience with poor neighborhoods to know what the pertinent issues are and to get a more wholesome understanding of the predictament of the affected. I wouldn't expect anyone who's never stepped into a neighborhood with Section 8 housing to know the whole story enough to come up with any substantive solutions, and the same applies for racial issues, as well. If you don't know the stories of people who experience them and fail to properly evaluate their worldview, any opinions you have on the matter are based on faulty reasoning and can't truly be taken seriously.

And yet everyone must live in a society subject to policies that are enacted as response to racism or supposed racism.

To suggest that people should be absolutely silent and not contribute to the discourse that leads to policies that affect their lives is morally abhorrent. Ask them to weight their opinions, sure but telling them to shut up is absurd.

I'm happy to have an honest and open discussion about it but that's not what most people want.

Once you start talking about systemic racism vs the rise of single-motherhood and destruction of the family and glorification of violence within the black communities you're called a racist and the discussion stops there.

There's no room for legitimate discussion and therefore nothing improves and nothing gets better, and in fact things get worse.

> Once you start talking about systemic racism vs the rise of single-motherhood and destruction of the family and glorification of violence within the black communities you're called a racist and the discussion stops there.

How is this at all relevant to the topic at hand? Why does every black individual have to account for the cultural and socioeconomic complexities of being born into a low income black neighborhood? Nobody needs a lecture on the struggles of the black community when they're talking about their own experiences and interactions in silicon valley. I don't think you're racist, and I'm sympathetic to the argument that the term "racist" is sometimes abused to the effect of shutting down discussion, but it's not surprising that someone might think you're racist if your response to racially charged interview questions is to bring up black single mothers and the glorification of violence in rap music.

None of these societal things I bring up have anything to do with the actual account of the author's fantastically awful and absurd experience with that CEO.

He clearly intended this to invoke a much wider discussion about race and system racism at the end of his essay. That's what I'm responding to.

you got some points... but honestly discussion at this point is not going to 'improve' anything. Racism of all kinds has been around from the dawn of man and will be around till the dusk of man. The USA has actually outside of the legal/police/corrections system reached as good a point as can reasonably be expected and is among the least racist countries in the world.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. I sincerely doubt that most minorities (myself included) think that we've "reached as good a point as can reasonably expected". I don't think I've ever really heard much arguments to give evidence that the US is "among the least racist countries in the world"

Discounting the value of any discussion about race because you believe we've reached good enough is not a conducive mentality to have towards just about anything, much less society. Things have improved over time because people weren't content with "good enough".

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