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Comment by kbart | Hacker News Reader

I'm not familiar with US customs, so little confused here: is asking your co-worker out is considered a sexual harassment? Or is it the "milf" part?

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Asking somebody out isn't sexual harassment. Insisting and making crude work-inappropriate remarks is harassment, and that's not just in the US: [76/207/EEC] Article 2 § 2

> harassment: where an unwanted conduct related to the sex of a person occurs with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person, and of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment

> sexual harassment: where any form of unwanted verbal, non-verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature occurs, with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person, in particular when creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment

[76/207/EEC] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLE...

Though were "crude work-inappropriate remarks" the case here?

We here know too little to really make educated statements.

I'm having trouble thinking of a situation in which calling someone a milf would be anything but a "crude work-inappropriate remark".

Not knowing enough English slang to know what it stands for? I wrote sth similar elsewhere in this thread, I guess to many milf means sexy 30+ yrs old female.

milf

Not sure about asking a co-worker out, but calling someone a MILF (Mom I'd Like to Fuck) sounds like sexual harrassment to me.

I find it quite strange that you're getting downvoted for this comment. As a man, I wouldn't want to work at a place where such a comment wouldn't be considered harassment.

Don't know why you got downvoted, this is EXACTLY what MILF means.

I upvoted your comment. Calling someone you work with and barely know a milf is an asinine move. That said though - she might have led him on when she agreed to move the conversation to whatsapp.

According to what was told, they moved the conversation to Whatsapp before he asked her to hang out. What would she be leading him on about?

Implicitly agreeing to continue a conversation that may become inappropriate for the regular employer-provided channels.

In more archaic terms, he asked for her number so that he could call her up after work. If she were not at all interested, she would not have released her personal contact info.

Obviously, she was not expecting him to immediately blow his chances by making a clumsy, ham-handed, and vulgar come-on. She [wisely] notified her boss because men that do not demonstrate emotional maturity may have difficulty handling rejection gracefully.

I think once the conversation is moved from the company slack channel to whatsapp qualifies it as getting moved from the work-related realm to the private realm.

One can argue that by agreeing to move the convo to whatsapp she sent a "sure let's have a private conversation" message.

"Private conversation" is anything not related to work, from asking if there's a good restaurant to geeking out on the latest TV show episode; it certainly does not imply any sexual attraction!

Agreed. However once the conversation goes private it's just that - a private non work related conversation. Unless there's anything illegal there like physical threats etc it's a private matter between the parties directly involved.

From every sexual.harassment training I've had given by lawyers working in the field, the idea that a change of venue/forum necessarily removes something like this from work-related is absolutely not the case.

I think there's a fine line there. From what I understand from whatever corporate training I went through in the past - if there's a job-related activity like team dinner and then some ppl go to the bar for a few drinks - this is still 'job related'. Same goes for business-related travel and so on.

In this particular case though - a weekend conversation after an explicit request to take it private - not sure if this qualifies as "job related".

And even if it somehow does qualify as being 'job related' I guess my point is that I can see how by agreeing to switch to whatsapp the signal that she sent was 'yes, let's talk in private' and if he's the kind of dude who calls someone he barely knows a 'milf' I can totally see how in his mind this was 'yea let's hook up' :)

Coworkers speak privately to one another all the time about all sorts of things. Even in private conversations, they can reasonably expect professional and appropriate behavior from their colleagues.

When does someone become "more" than a coworker? There's no clear line there, but it's definitely not during the very first private conversation.

Don't think there's a question here whether his comments were appropriate or not. They were not.

Ppl also get harassed on the street with all kinds of inappropriate comments.

The question here is whether this constitutes a workplace sexual harassment or not. It's probably going to be a judgement call on behalf of the employer, however they have to be careful not to get a wrongful termination lawsuit to deal with down the line if they do end up letting him go.

It's a workplace issue because the two people were brought together by their employer and the conversation was initiated in a work context.

You're right that people get harassed by strangers in all sorts of public places, but that's not what happened here.

Yup same here. Every sexual harassment training course I've attended has said that just because it is not happening on company time or on company property does not make it not harassment.

if i said "can we move this conversation somewhere more private, and outside work" and you said "yes" is there an implication of some consent?

could the guy have been imagining that her agreeing to move the convo was her approval, and anything further was her playing hard to get?

that said, the magic words "sure as friends in work context" should have been a cease and desist to end any further bright ideas.

> if i said "can we move this conversation somewhere more private, and outside work" and you said "yes" is there an implication of some consent?

Consent to have a private conversation, yes. Consent for sexual advances, not necessarily.

Coworkers can ask for private conversations for all sorts of reasons. Maybe they have a work question and don't want to look dumb by asking it in front of everybody. Maybe they want a restaurant recommendation and don't want to clutter the work chat with that. Maybe they heard you've been to Orlando, and they're planning a vacation there, and is Disney World worth it? Etc.

It can even be a private conversation to ask a coworker out--that's fine if done appropriately. Dropping F-bombs, even in acronym form, is not.

That specific wording ("somewhere more private") might imply acceptance of sexual advances, but nowhere do we see those words in the original post, and I find it hard to believe that one would say "yes" to that if one wasn't interested in being asked out.

if a coworker asks me for my personal phone number or email address, something is up. there is a reason they arent using official company provided communication. asking for my phone number sounds like explicit "move this off the record."

Yes, and that might be because they want you to make a move on them, or it might be - like it very recently happened to me - that they just wanted to ask you for help on a side project. I can definitely tell you that I wasn't leading my coworker on when I sent him my personal email address, and I find it weird that it would be someone's only assumption.

If instead of asking you to help out with a project they would've asked you out, would you consider this to be an inappropriate/sexual harassment situation though?

No, but neither did she. If they kept pressing after being turned down, yes, probably.

There is no US customs to this kind of thing. Every where I've ever worked the rules and thoughts on it have varied. It's a huge minefield of problems that very few handle well. The general idea is don't be rude and/or crude to anyone. In some cases asking out a coworker is fine, in others it's a violation; could depend on how you ask them. The milf part is clearly a problem.

It's generally uncouth to ask out a coworker, especially at a small company. Incredibly unprofessional to do it within the first few days of joining. The milf part is the icing on the cake.

A quick Google around shows that 38% of people have dated a co-worker, so it seems unusual to call it uncouth.

US custom is to sue first and ask questions later. As a result, successful companies mitigate their exposure to that particular risk.

Very good question!

Generally in USA everything can be considered sexual harassment. All you have to do is go to HR and complain that (here is important part), in your personal opinion, you were harassed.

Also it doesn't have to be verbal or physical. You shouldn't stare either.

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