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Comment by TeMPOraL | Hacker News Reader

I'm in the middle of reading through The Unix-Haters Handbook and I must say that the arguments against web-as-application-platform (and the attempts to defend it) and are eerily similar to what this book reports about arguments against Unix that were circulated in the 80s and early 90s. Sadly, the fact Unix managed to a) win, and b) fuck up the computing world so badly that people don't even realize how much we've lost doesn't make me hopeful about the future of the web.

Bad stuff seems to win because it's more evolutionarily adapted than well thought out stuff. This happens to hold for programming languages too.

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Your takeaway of computers going from niche industry to the single largest driver of global economic activity is that the bad stuff won? What an incredibly myopic conclusion.

The recent cross-communication between JavaScript, Elm, and Clojure has been incredibly fruitful but hasn't been noticed by the bitter die-hards. And really, almost all of it could've happened literally 15 years ago with Lisp if the Lisp community hadn't been dismissive, arrogant douchebags that considered JavaScript a worthless toy language.

What's truly sad is that some people would rather be abstractly right while producing nothing of value than work with the dominant paradigm and introduce useful concepts to it.

> Your takeaway of computers going from niche industry to the single largest driver of global economic activity is that the bad stuff won? What an incredibly myopic conclusion.

This did not happen thanks to Unix; if anything, you'd probably have to be grateful to Microsoft and Apple for introducing OSes that were end-user-usable. There's a reason the "year of Linux on Desktop" never happened and is always one year from now.

The point of The Unix-Haters Handbook, which also applies very much to modern web is that the so-called "advancement" didn't really bring anything new. It reinvented old things - things we knew how to do right - but in a broken way, full of half-assed hacks that got fossilized because everything else depends on it.

> And really, almost all of it could've happened literally 15 years ago with Lisp if the Lisp community hadn't been dismissive, arrogant douchebags that considered JavaScript a worthless toy language.

I don't know where you're getting that from, but it's probably a good opportunity to remind you that JavaScript was supposed to be Scheme twice, both time it didn't happen because Netscape wanted a Java-looking solution right fucking now to compete first with Java, and then with Microsoft, and somehow no-one thought to pause for the moment and maybe do it right.

(Also don't blame Lisp community for the fact that companies reinvented half of Lisp in XML. Rather ask yourself why most programmers think the history of programming is a linear progression of power from Assembler and C, and why they remain ignorant of anything that happened before ~1985.)

JavaScript got a bad rep because a) it was terribly broken (less so now), and b) because of all the stupid stuff people were writing in it those 15 years ago. But the current problems of the Web are not really the fault of JavaScript, but of the community moving forward at the speed of typing, without stopping for a second and thinking if those layers on layers on layers of complexity are actually needed or useful. Simple landing pages are now built on frameworks that are more complex than what we used to call "Enterprise Edition" 10 years ago.

Unix isn't for end users, it's for developers to build on top of to give things to end users. Linux on desktop already happened years and years ago if you work for a tech company, and that's probably about as far as it needs to go.

http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptab...

This is Steve Yegge's understanding of the Lisp community, and I should clarify that I don't think the XML monstrosities we all work with are "all their fault", but that, on the whole, the Lisp community and enterprise coders were mutually antagonistic.

Javascript after ES3 really wasn't broken at all, just most people coding in it didn't know how to take advantage of it. No language can prevent someone dedicated to bad code architecture from writing bad code. A Lisp programmer would've found a lot of comfortable features and powerful patterns and been able to share them, but most of their efforts were wasted denouncing everyone outside of their tiny sect. The end result was that most people learning JavaScript were taught how to code like it was broken Java because most of the resources were written by Enterprise Java devs who didn't understand what a fundamentally impoverished language Java is.

Thanks for the link to that post. I'd also advise to read through its comment though - some people there, especially Pascal Costanza, point out quite a lot of problems that basically reduce it to ranting of a person who doesn't understand the language and the culture he's writing about ;).

Also, the influx of enterprise patterns into JavaScript is quite a recent phenomenon - personally, I blame Google (who, for a reason I can't understand to this day, embraces enterprise-level Java as their primary platform for everything...), but regardless, the problem with JavaScript culture is mostly that of very fast growth coupled with lack of experience and (probably unwilling) ignorance of the past. Since this community basically controls the Internet, it's hard for voices expressing some restraint and thoughtfulness to get trough the noise.

And I really do recommend The Unix-Haters Handbook. Funny thing is - over a decade ago, when I was acquainting myself with the Linux world (after many years of DOS and Windows experience), I've been noticing and complaining about various things that felt wrong or even asinine. Gradually I got convinced by people I considered smarter than me that those things are not bugs but features, they're how a Good Operating System works, etc. Only now I realize that my intuition back then was right, but I got Stockolm-syndromed to accept the insanity. Like most of the world. The sad thing is, there were better solutions in the past, which once again shows how IT is probably the only industry that's totally ignorant of its own history and constantly running in circles.

What part of UHH do you think is not obsolete? I dislike many aspects of Unix, but it seems like 90% of the book is either wrong, meaningless invective, or obsolete. It's hard to view it as of more than historical value -- which is a shame, because Unix is far from perfect.

To clarify, I'm about half of the way through the book, and I have found a couple arguably-correct points. Complaints about Usenet and Unix vendors have mostly gone the way of the dodo. The author consistently ignores any distinction between the filesystem and the rest of the OS, which may have been accurate at the time of writing, but hasn't been true for decades. Similarly, we don't distinguish between a given shell and Unix as a whole, even though the book makes explicit mention that other shells exist. And why there is a chapter on Usenet passes understanding. Suggesting that shell expansion be handled by an external library is equally bizarre. So far the valid points are: * command input syntax is inconsistent. I don't know that this has a feasible solution, but it is true. * tar specifically sucks * sendmail configuration sucks

The real crime of UHH is that it merely hates, it does not instruct. When we do find valid criticisms, there is no suggestion for how to fix things, or how other OSes are better at the same role. I've resigned myself to read the entirety, but for all the authors' complaints about not learning anything from history, one can only feel like they have themselves to blame.

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