Edit: Above I said "a 3-5 year line," which is inaccurate. The current line is 7-9 years long.
Edit: Above I said "a 3-5 year line," which is inaccurate. The current line is 7-9 years long.
Neither interpretation's fair to either of you, though.
(I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.)
That's what I mean; living in Europe you think about visas so rarely, despite crossing borders and looking at jobs overseas, that the whole idea begins to look archaic and paranoid.
I can understand why visas might seem obsolete from a European perspective, but from an American perspective regulation is a necessity. Per year we already accept the highest number of permanent residents in the world. In 2008 we naturalized a record number of people. And most importantly, per year we grant the highest number of people political asylum. These numbers, combined with the fact that unemployment in the US is the highest it's been since the early 1940s, makes accepting large number of immigrants impossible.
I'm not defending this bill or the current system; I know there are areas that need improvement. But fundamentally the US needs some sort of visa system.
This claim is specious: the high-end immigrants who are likely to start tech companies and earn PhDs are enormously employable and likely to employ others. If you want more employment, bring in people who are likely to make jobs; notice the high number of tech startups with founders who are immigrants or the children of immigrants.
Still, I doubt that these visas are going to have any noticeable impact on unemployment because the rate at which they'll be granted isn't going to be high enough.
As for immigration more generally, see James Fallows' comments here: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201001/american-decline . Allowing immigration is one of the relatively few things that America does right.
Here's the different kinds for Sweden: http://www.migrationsverket.se/info/1074_en.html
In Germany the first permit that you get (an H1B equivalent) is tied to one job, and hence, tied to the place where you have that job. After 5 years of working full-time (and a long string of other checklist items), you're eligible to begin the application process for permanent residence (which I now have).
However you can still (with the permit to stay) move between UE countries, just get back to Italy and declare revenue (as entrepreneur).
Heh, there are still people in EU countries (Romania, Bulgaria the least) that need visas to work in another EU country. So it's not all rosy within EU borders either.
Look at http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_4659.htm.... It says that the US government is just now processing applicants who filed under EB-3 back in 2001 and 2002.
Put the "EB-6" people in the same line as the EB-3 people and the proposed legislation becomes a lot more fair, but useless. Speed up the EB-3 process and lots of people stuck working under a H1-B would quit their jobs and start their own businesses. The could do so with the money they've saved, or negotiate fair deals with investors.
I'm sure they will. However, rich people are such a minority that in 90%+ of cases this law will be used for its intended purpose.
Rich people can also "abuse" speeding and parking ticket laws(you can speed and park anywhere if you can afford the tickets), tax laws, etc. Just the way of the world. I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
I recommend everybody to read the proposed change to the law. It is a very small "patch" that is easy to read and understand, especially once you've read the rest of the discussion on this topic.
Which, I must confess, appeals to me personally, but if we concede that we need the ability to legislate, then the simple potential for abuse can't be showstopper for any individual piece of legislation.
Rates and/or severity of abuse maybe, but not the simple possibility of it.
Why can't H1-B's do that right now? AFAIK there is nothing stopping them from moving to an EB6. I would.
I don't think that is an argument against speeding up EB-3. I think that should happen as well, but is obviously much harder politically.
we can attack the problem by focusing on improving INS processing times, rather than excluding other valid applicants (of any type). we are certainly not suggesting StartupVisa green card applicants "move to the front of the line" ahead of anyone else, simply that their application be considered fairly & reasonably along with others.
Are you saying you'd have EB-6 applications also take 8.5 years?
furthermore, the job creation / economic output benefits don't need to wait for green card processing to be solved.
there's being practical, and then there's simply being defeatist.
i'd rather be part of trying to provide solutions to INS processing times than to wait on innovative solutions to job creation & immigration reform.
However, besides her, I've met others in similar or worse situations, stuck in the EB-3 queue. Even if my friend got her green card under EB-2, I'd still be advocating for the EB-3 workers.
I give you and startupvisa.com for actually taking a political issue to the point where one of the power-holding senators was willing to introduce legislation. And maybe if it comes to a vote while attached to the military funding bill or something it will pass! I don't think populists have enough power to speak out against the bill, so whether or not it passes probably comes down to random DC "inside baseball".
META: I ask that if you (anyone reading this) do not have something profoundly interesting to say that you not reply with any political discussion.
US immigration is so unbelievably messed up that there is little productive we can say. Like... there are actually networks of secret immigration prisons that lose people regularly. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100104/stevens
Also see http://www.amnestyusa.org/uploads/JailedWithoutJustice.pdf but note that there is a much stronger political message.
Fixing the world one step at a time is not a bad approach.
Starting by steps that have great potential for generating wealth is a sensible strategy if you are thinking of taking any more steps.
META:
Lest someone else respond to me, I don't mean to imply that there aren't many more viable strategies for fixing the world! If you think you can save the world, I would prefer to discuss it with you via email rather than in this thread.
When the entrepreneur is booted out because (s)he was unable to generate $1M in revenue a year after 2 years in business, what happens to the business? Do the investors retain ownership? What legal rights does the entrepreneur have over the business (s)he created?
There are no laws in America protecting the rights of these entrepreneurs who are not citizens. They are here to build a business, hopefully, but if they miss the marks, they lose everything! Their home, their business, their employees, and potentially the rights to any revenues, IP, or equity in the company they founded. Do you think some rich investors who have the ability to have our nation's laws changed to their favor are going to stop taking money out of a business because its entrepreneur isn't allowed to live in the U.S. anymore? It'll be business as usual for them, with or without the entrepreneur who created the business.
This bill is good for no one but rich investors. It's definitely not good for entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship has absolutely nothing to do with venture capital or investors or people with at least $10M in the bank. It's about creating businesses with the sweat off your back. If we are going to reward something -- reward that -- no strings attached!
Especially not strings attached to the fingers of the same rich folks who have caused so many problems in our nation already!
This is so horrible. What is happening to our country??
Where are you getting this from?
Non-residents can own things that happen to be in the US. They can sell them. They can even buy them.
Even if you're deported, there's no forfeiture.
Again - no, being deported doesn't cause any of those things. The owners of the biz are the ones who make that decison.
Since we're assuming that you're being deported because you're not satisfying the conditions of the startup visa, what are the odds that said owners would have kept you on anyway?
Advocates of the startup visa said that they wanted to bring folks into the company to create biz. Fair enough, but what should we conclude when they complain about deporting folks who don't do what they wanted?
And, what should we conclude when they make up stories about the consequences of deportation?
Yes, there have to be measurable metrics to gauge traction. Yes, I agree that 2 (3?) years is an acceptable time to create 5 jobs OR earn a mil OR raise a mil. Yes, unless those who don't meet these rules are deported, the rules won't have teeth.
But neither of those points has anything to do with the argument that deportation is synonymous with losing position, authority and likely control.
Maintaining control of a startup that is funded is a challenging job even when you are in the country. It should be. In my opinion, it would take a genius to remotely manage a startup. Even if you continue to be a majority owner after an investment, it would be very tough at best and foolish at worst to try to manage it from another country. That is assuming that it's a decision you alone can make, and your investors have no actual say in the matter.
The bottom line is that at the end of 2 (3?) years, if you don't meet these metrics, you will be in a different country than your company and very likely unable to control it without large scale changes in business model and/or structure.
Deportation is not syonymous with any of those things.
Those things are decided by the folks who control the biz. They're free to keep the person on after deportation. They're free to do those things even if the person isn't deported.
Yes, deportation may be a good reason for them to make certain decisions, but since they're free to ignore that reason, it isn't synonymous.
As to "nothing to do", the only reasons to discuss this are (1) if we let someone in on a startup visa, we shouldn't deport them if they fail, (2) folks who succeed on a startup visa might be deported, and (3) random cussedness.
Regardless, it's simply not true that being deported necessarily has the effects claimed.
entrepreneurs who fail to meet the bar are not being unfairly punished by investors, rich or otherwise.
these rqmts are simply the proposed bar for qualification. meet them, and you can stay. nothing more, nothing less.
this is a considerably better situation than what we have currently.
The rich are in no way obligated to share their wealth with you - as the Canadian government has unfortunately learned. Our immigration programs have three paths: skilled labour, investment, and entrepreneurial. Skilled labour is simply letting people in who have skills we need, investment expects that you invest a $HIGH_AMOUNT into the Canadian economy (with the expectation, not requirement, of more), and entrepreneurial requires that you run your own business for $TIME before you qualify for citizenship.
The first category is usually a win for the country, since these people seek employment and are taxable, not to mention you didn't have to pay for their education.
The second and third categories are fundamentally broken - I personally know many families who do the absolute bare minimum to hit the permanent residency requirements, and keep all of their wealth off the books in Asia, bringing them in literal suitcases of cash (staying just under the declaration limit each time). Heck, I know families that are receiving government benefits for low-income families even though they have millions in property overseas.
My point is, unless you require rich immigrants to give up a huge chunk of money just to get in, expecting that the rich will contribute to your tax base is IMHO misguided. These people are already rich, for cryin' out loud.
That said, Canadian law tends to tax people on Canadian earnings. (Or at least it did the last time I paid attention, which was admittedly 15 years ago or so.) Which contrasts to US law that taxes US citizens on worldwide earnings (though the US does give a large exemption for foreign sourced income that keeps this from affecting a lot of people).
Questions like that cannot be answered in any definite manner. If the rich use their capital to create wealth, then it benefits the country. If the rich use it to alter public policy to their advantage, then it harms the country. A new visa process should not enable the rich to game the system unfairly to their advantage at the expense of other prospective applicants.
A lot of countries have a lot of rich people at the helm and aren't really, what I would call, benefiting from that. It could even be argued that a lot of the problems in countries are caused by the rich.
I think about it kind of like this: We all want to keep getting richer. I just take that as the rule from which I derive a couple more points on this topic.
First, to be a noticeable increase in wealth, that increase must be appreciable. It must be felt by the wealthy person. I think to appreciate it, it must be a certain percentage change. We probably wouldn't notice a 0.05% increase in our wealth, but we would notice a 50% increase.
Second, assume rich people and poor people desire an equivalent feeling of wealth growth. If I make $10k a year, $1,000 more next year will feel great. I'll have almost $100 more to spend a month. Someone making $100k desires an increase in wealth of $10,000 a year.
Now, if we spread that $10,000 worth of wealth created to make the rich person feel better to the poor people who only needed $1,000 additional a year to feel better, we could have made 10 people happier, instead of just one person happier when that money went to the rich person. $20,000 worth of wealth could make 20 people happier, instead of 1 rich person and 10 poor people = 11 people.
If you believe in Greatest Good for the Greatest Number anyway, but not all subscribe to that philosophy. I do I think. If one person experienced elation at the expense of the whole world, would that be good? Not to suggest that I would offer to harm a minority to bring joy to the world. But I do wonder if growth is beneficial. I think it may not be. It could be bad.
So, I am not sure how to answer your question. I do not know for a fact if it is in a country's self interest to encourage the growth of the investor class with at least $10M in the bank. It may take a lot of stagnation or depression among the working class or creative class to create additional wealth for an already rich minority.
Further from that, if you raise the foundation, quantified as the poverty line perhaps, then it increases the quality of everyone's lives, even the rich. There's less crime, less blight, and people are simply much more pleasant to be around than when there are huge disparities between the rich and the poor.
This is a bit tangential, but I think it's quite important - Greatest Good is a very important belief for someone to consider, and you've written really thoughtfully and introspectively. Here's my perspective, which is a little different:
Sometimes I voluntarily do things to make other people happier. I donate to St. Jude's Children Hospital in the USA, and I've run two small charity events for Great Ormond Street Children's in London, raising a tiny bit of money for sick kids and their families. When I was younger and Catholic, I also volunteered for the Catholic Arts Festival, and I've volunteered at soup kitchens. I spend lots of my time teaching pretty much anyone who cares at all whatever they want to know, including last month teaching a really nice 26-year-old kindergarten teacher how to negotiate for better pay after she got an offer at a great school but they were offering below market pay. I spent three hours teaching her how to negotiate, see others' points of view, and leave it open for them to raise their offer without increasing hostility. I did this just because I like to do good things, I didn't get anything in return except a feeling of doing something good.
So, I really like helping people. But once someone says, you need to help this person, or you're in trouble - my skin crawls. I hate it. It sends every signal to me to resist, to fight, to fight back, to counterattack, to throw off these mandates and chains people would place on me. They want my resources by force? They want my time by force? They want to restrict freely where I can go, and what I can do, and who I can trade with, and what I can buy for myself, and what I can do in my own home, in my own company, with my own friends, and so on, and so on?
To that - to that I say no. Or rather, if they've got me out-gunned, I submit, but I grit my teeth and submit. You see, I think I aim to make myself overwhelmingly a net positive anywhere I go. I try to be polite and respect local culture, share the best things from my culture, teach people, learn, work, prosper, and make others prosper. But frequently people say, "We could do even more good!" And so, with that justification, they limit my mobility, or give a regulator the authority to regulate a transaction between me and another person, or pass a tax, or conscript, or close borders, or so on.
I'm against that all tremendously. So this is an alternative perspective on Greatest Good for Greatest Number. I'm against it, because I know I do right by people, and I feel comfortable ethically with how much I contribute. I feel pretty good about what I do, actually. And I think anyone who isn't a criminal and can support themselves should be largely allowed to do what they like, without fear of being beaten down if they don't do what authorities say is right. It doesn't particularly matter to me how legitimate the authorities believe they are - whether they've got a divine right of kings, or are blessed and anointed by the head of the church, or are elected through direct democracy, or representational democracy - maybe their governorship is more or less legitimate, but if they start saying, "We must do the greatest good, you must do this, you can't do that - in the name of good" I get very upset and believe that's wrong. I submit, because they're much much stronger than me, but it's with a mix of teeth gritted, sadness, and indignation. This isn't a right or wrong perspective per se, I just wanted to take a moment to share an alternate one with you. It's a little bit tangential from the investor discussion, but I think it's really important to think about.
I would suggest distributing the wealth equally among all is the best route to the greatest happiness, rather than giving most or all of it to one individual for whom it may not even be noticed.
I'm not sure, restricting freedoms of the innocent or demanding individuals work to benefit others at their own expense could create a net positive. The "badness" of that might be infinity.
If you look throughout history, it's never really worked out well to allow a rich minority to determine what happens to people and the land. Since time immemorial, a rich few have been abusing the property rights of others. Even America was founded by a rich minority who took the wealth of the land from the majority incumbents.
It's the same thing as always.
Unless I misread your initial message, you suggested that the government was not "taking" wealth from anyone, but rather it somehow had "surplus" wealth to be distributed. My question is more finely tuned to "where did this 'surplus' wealth come from, if it was not 'taken' from someone at some point?"
Only if you are on a low-priority employment-based visa and are Indian or Chinese born (i.e. waiting for priority date to become current). The process is still much too long though, even in other cases.
Not that I want to defend the US immigration and employment visa processes. Far from it. The system as it stands is completely and utterly broken. It turns away many of the very people the nation needs to keep its competitive edge in the world.
Realistically though, it will be quite some time before any politician will be willing - or even able - to show the kind of leadership that is necessary to tackle immigration issues, regardless of the merits of doing so.
To make visas available, we would amend immigration law to create a new EB-6 category for immigrant entrepreneurs. We would draw from existing visas under the EB-5 category. The EB-5 permits foreign nationals who invest at least $1 million in the U.S., and thereby create 10 jobs, to obtain a green card. In areas where unemployment is high, foreign nationals need only invest $500,000 to obtain residency. Though roughly 10,000 visas are annually allocated for the EB-5 category, less than half were used in FY 2009, so the addition of immigrant entrepreneurs should not present an unreasonable burden.
http://startupvisa.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/dc-startup-vi...
This merely branches a new visa off from EB-5, which is separate from, and has different intentions than, EB-3. EB-5 visas are not all being used up anymore, so both Senators are attempting to put those waisted EB-5's to good use. They imply that the proposed EB-6 visas "should not present an unreasonable burden" on the system.
if anything, prioritization is likely to work the other way: EB-1s first, then EB-2s, EB-3s, etc. see language below for EB-1 priority visa workers (with "extraordinary abilities"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-1_visa
note: i am not an immigration lawyer (IANA[I]L).
you may also wish to review language for the Immigration Act of 1990: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1990
The question is what happens to those "extra" 9,000 visa numbers that are pre-reserved for EB-5. Everything I've been told says that whatever numbers aren't used by EB-5s gets "spilled over," starting at the top (EB-1), instead of going unused.
Also, I am not a lawyer either.