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Comment by rdtsc | Hacker News Reader

One day coffee shops should just have machines like that, but still look inviting and warm, artwork on the walls, earthy color schemes.

Heck might even have a "barrista", but they just press the button on the machine. But then machine automatically drops a cup and makes your drink.

You order by voice or even better via an app on your phone, ahead of time, as you get closer to the store it starts to make it so when you step in, it is ready.

I wouldn't be upset a bit if the barrista got paid the same, and instead spent more time interacting with customers, or picking music, and kicking out people who have camped there for the last 5 hours after buying a $2 cookie.

But to be serious, I don't understand why coffee making still needs a human for measuring, timing and mixing things. Just guessing that a machine will be more consistent with all the variables (temperature, water, coffee, milk mixture etc), and will be more efficient as well.

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Starbucks already tried that, from https://consumerist.com/2007/06/22/confessions-of-a-starbuck...

> A few years ago, Starbucks made the jump to automatic espresso machines. Standard procedure for pulling a shot of espresso requires grinding into the portafilter, tamping it down, locking it into the espresso machine, and pressing the button to start the water. The Starbucks machine does all of this with the touch of one button – it also stores the coffee grounds as compressed pucks in a drawer that needs to be emptied only twice a day. This saves a lot of time for baristas, especially when there’s a long line. The shots themselves are very good for an automatic machine. But these machines cost about ten thousand dollars apiece compared to about three thousand for a quality manual commercial grade espresso machine. That’s a lot of money to recoup at about two dollars for a double shot. Not to mention that Starbucks also pays its employees a higher wage than most coffee shops because they don’t make as much tips working at Starbucks. The cost of operating a Starbucks is astronomical. But the quality is there.

And then http://www.idea-sandbox.com/blog/solving-starbucks-problems-... :

> When we went to automatic espresso machines, we solved a major problem in terms of speed of service and efficiency. At the same time, we overlooked the fact that we would remove much of the romance and theatre that was in play with the use of the La Marzocco* machines. This specific decision became even more damaging when the height of the machines, which are now in thousands of stores, blocked the visual sight line the customer previously had to watch the drink being made, and for the intimate experience with the barista.

I was flabbergasted when Starbucks started to use the auto espresso machines. I ran into Dave Olsen, their coffee guru, and asked him about. Surely he was against such a move. Nope. He told me the machines lifted the floor on quality.

Given the challenges of quality control and costs of training, I had to reluctantly admit that was a pretty good reason.

I still prefer hand pulled shots done by an expert. Bad to meh espresso isn't worth it. Most of the time I just get drip.

Thanks! Real quick, what happened? Did they end the project? Seems to me at least 1 employee could be replaced by such a machine, the machine costs ten thousand once (+ maintenance and replacement), the employee costs tens of thousands every year. (i.e. you make about $9-10 at Starbucks as a Barista, but it costs Starbucks at least $12, that's $25k per year per FTE). I don't see how they brought up cost. Although I'm not surprised people don't want to order at a mini factory haha, at least not yet.

I'm guessing they didn't replace them after wearing out, and didn't put them in new stores. I don't think it actually saved much labor, a partner is still needed to man the bar, there was more work to do than just drawing shots. Also, people were part of the Starbucks experience, it wasn't just a coffee factory.

Now if someone invented an automatic frapiccino machine, I'm sure many Starbucks partners would be begging for it.

To make decent, heck even good, coffee, you just need to get in the ballpark. A machine is very good at that. But if you want great coffee, there is a lot of craftmanship in it. My experience is that 99.9% of all "baristas" could be replaced by a machine - but the 0.1%, makes a better cup in every way. They continuously readjust the grinder and brew parameters to match the weather and beans.

With time maybe we can apply science to that process, but until then - the 0.1% makes the best coffee.

> continuously readjust the grinder and brew parameters to match the weather and beans.

I say this as a total coffee outsider but... You're kidding, right? Is that really a thing or are you describing audiophilesque insanity?

Can confirm. Reason:

The grinder will have a hopper on top. Typically you're going to open a sealed package of roasted beans, and empty them in there. It might then take you hours/days/weeks to go through the beans, depending on how many shots you are pouring a day. The hopper has a lid, but is by no means air-tight. So the beans will age/oxidize/deteriorate as they sit in the hopper, which changes their characteristics, and you'll usually be nudging the grinder occasionally to compensate. Ditto with humidity.

At my last job, we had a professional espresso setup right in the office. Each new staffer who was interested would go through an initiation, and various people around the office developed reputations for being able to produce coffees ranging from excellent to crap :-)

We had a grinder like this one, you'd find it in any café: http://www.mazzer.com/en/grinder-dosers/super-jolly/

Our coffee machine itself had two group-heads and an enormous brass boiler, and was plumbed into the water main. I do miss it.

Anyway once you've tamped and poured a few shots, you begin to get a sense of whether a given pour is too fast, too slow, or just right. Assuming you have a consistent tamping technique, it's the grind that's going to determine this.

Incidentally the grinder adjustments are super fine, the tiniest bump will change the pour noticeably. Coarser grind is going to give a faster pour, finer grind will be slower.

My office has a café level coffee setup like the one you describe. Slowly improving, still manage to cock it up completely now and then.

Are there any things you would tell yourself if you went back in time to when you were new to it? Just on the lookout for things I can improve!

Humidity does influence the grind very much, even causing support calls to the supplier when it changes quickly.

There are professional Bluetooth enabled grinders now which communicate with the coffee machine to adjust the grind automatically.

The weather is really an issue.

I'm 100% serious. Once you have learned to taste the palate of coffee, it's relatively easy to spot even minor over/under extraction issues, and knowing how to adjust the brew parameters you can create 2 very different cups from the same beans and brew method. Experience enable you to figure out how to make the best possible cup.

This is, at best, a severely autistic view of the world.

Then you must think the Japanese are autistic :).

Over there most ramen shops have you order from a machine that spits out a ticketZ

What is, using machine to save people from doing repetitive work?

Is using excavators instead of people with shovels autistic?

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