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Comment by Laforet | Hacker News Reader

The pictures are not bad, but the captions are incredibly cringe and condescending. Of course he would not bother to tell us how to disable the delete in the firmware. Seriously, I mean, thousands of people have gone on these state-sponsored package tours in North Korea and we see the same set of trains, roads, hotels and attractions that they have really got boring.

One photography project I do found interesting is the set below commissioned by Getty Images. The photographers they hired found a loophole in their visa conditions, managed enter NK from Russia and reached Pyongyang on trains rarely used by tourists. They were able to interact more with the locals since the border guards as well as people en route have not been "coached" to speak to foreginers and the whole thing came out feeling much more genuine than these tourist flicks.

Selected pictures featured in Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210256/Fascinating-...

Photographer's Portfolio: http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/search/events/573232783?exclude...

Photographer's written account of their travel (in Chinese), plus a few candid shots that Getty refused to buy: https://www.zhihu.com/question/19972643/answer/81163727

View on HN

Condescending? This is an enslaved country with concentration many times larger than anything the Nazis cooked up. It's hard to condescend to one of the great evils in history.

I agree with the OP, I found the captions extremely condescending. Especially the ones about China. The worst one for me was:

> At night, the elderly Chinese dance in the streets in unison avoiding any displays of individuality.

This comment would be the same as going to an aerobics class and saying "the gym rats move in unison avoiding any displays of individuality". These dancing grannies are not much difference, one of the main reasons they do this is for health and to stay active. Like going to the gym there is also a social component; health and social reasons are why the grannies dance. Actually each group does things differently and the moves are part of the tradition. It's as about anti-individualistic as going to an aerobic or yoga class.

Really, it starts going bad at the opening:

> The Koreans are one nation, but not unlike Germany, the country was divided between the USSR and the US following World War 2.

This is just factually incorrect. A more apt comparison would be Germany and Austria. Yes they are both ethnically Korean, but Korean has only been unified for about half it's approximately 1500 year history and when it was unified it was often unified in a similar feudal way that Germany and Austria where "unified" in the HRE. The reality is Korea has always been the primary location of proxy wars between China and Japan. The only unified points was when one of China or Japan was strong enough to dominate the whole peninsula. Even the North/South terms are very Western in origin with most surrounding Asian countries having completely different names for the two countries that are as related as "Germany" and "Austria".

On the ground within South Korea, especially towards the south of the country, there just isn't a sense that unification should even be attempted or that the two countries have much in common.

Finally, one of the main reasons China is willing to take a stronger hand against North Korea and support sanctions is because South Korea has been moving increasingly from Japanese/American sphere to the Chinese sphere of influence. Especially under the conservative Park. This more than anything else is likely to spell doom for North Korea.

I do not think you are correct. For millenia, there have been excruciatingly few imbalances of power (war) between China, Japan, and Korea. Here is a great video overview [0]. If he is to believed (and external sources seem to agree), Korea and Asia has been far more stable for far longer periods of time (until ~1900) than Europe and America.

Furthermore, historically Korea (through various eras) has often (or always?) extended out of the Korean peninsula further into China than it is now. So in general they've been a lot more peaceful and unified than they are today. And yes it's an ill comparison to Germany and Austria because Korea has been around far longer.

> Even the North/South terms are very Western in origin with most surrounding Asian countries having completely different names for the two countries that are as related as "Germany" and "Austria".

Interestingly, the name "Austria" comes from "eastern realm":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Austria

Did not expect Godwin's law to be invoked so soon but I will give it a shot:

>The Chinese city where you get to do that is called Dandong. I read somewhere it was the most humane of Chinese cities, most having become a polluted nightmare these days...

If he was being ironic I must have missed it. He seems to regard Dandong as the pinnacle of Chinese economic ascendancy when the city actually has a reputation for rampant violent crime thanks to smuggling and drug trade that occurs across the border.

>Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission.

Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week?

>North Koreans supposedly believe that the entire world is in awe of their achievements.

That's a lot to ask for a paddy field in the middle of nowhere.

>The man has some genuine dignity.

Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not.

See, I am not interested in defending the NK regime. However the author/photographer shows a rather disappointing lack of understanding, respect or the slightest empathy to for his subjects. Hence his pictures, while technically sound, are no better than the millions of photos taken by Western tourists in North Korea.

Also with regards to the Chinese:

> At night, the elderly Chinese dance in the streets in unison avoiding any displays of individuality.

Really? That's what you have to say about a movement for public folk dancing that has defied government control [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9308652e-d1f0-11e4-b66d-00144feab7...] and led to inter-generational tensions? [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/world/asia/china-dancing-s...]

The confirmation bias in favor of "oh look at how repressed and uniform this culture is" is super paternalistic.

>> Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission.

> Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week?

I'm not sure it's meant that way. I don't see material superiority in it. Noting your appreciation for your ability to get into a car and drive where you want when confronted with strict control of movement doesn't necessarily imply "they should get a car", but that the you understand that ability in a new light, as a freedom that isn't available to everyone.

I agree the captions sometimes come across as a little heavy handed, but also I think you're also being overly critical in some cases where it's not called for.

Addendum:

>> The man has some genuine dignity.

> Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not.

I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well, but decided it wasn't because a) The man looks dignified to me, especially in comparison to the train crossing guard in the prior slides, and b) I don't believe he uses sarcasm much in these slides, at least not the same type of sarcasm that would be exhibited here if this was meant sarcastically.

Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I was over-reacting, but I was more frustrated with other aspects of this post that I will spell out now at the risk of sounding like jealousy or argumentum ad hominem

- This set of photos has gone viral and was presented "the latest ILLEGAL photographs smuggled out of the hermit kingdom" in many reputable media outlets. It even made to the first page of HN (disguised as a technical write-up). Yet there is nothing remarkable about it. Sure, tourists are not supposed to take photos of soldiers, of police, of anything not pretty during their train journey to Pyongyang, or in some accounts, badly composed shots of their national monuments. But such photos seem to never be in short supply, a simple search will reveal hundreds of blog posts and image galleries littered with such snaps with nobody expressing slightest fear of reprisal. Whatever accomplishments it may have, had been blown out of proportion.

- The photographer is from Eastern Europe. My feeling from interaction with many Eastern Europeans of various background is that many of them will go out of their way to denounce their Cold War legacy, sometimes to the extent of borderline reactionary to my center-left mind. The multiple mentions of "individualism" in pretty unusual contexts as well as a general holier-than-thou attitude to countries presently aligned with Russia is eerily familiar.

> I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well...

This is a fair comment and I appreciate your thoughts. I actually stopped reading by that line then, but on my second attempt the last panel really stood out:

>> Elegant men, beautiful women, walking in a simulated hurry, travelers without a reason (ours was the only train that day), all to impress us and so that the station doesn't look empty.

Staged or not,there is no evidence either way. But if the observer has already decided that anything nice is only for show, then this will be the only thing he sees.

> Staged or not,there is no evidence either way. But if the observer has already decided that anything nice is only for show, then this will be the only thing he sees.

I agree there wasn't much evidence presented for a lot of the slides, but I took it more as a travelogue than an exposé. While I would have preferred more commentary and evidence for certain items, I'm not going to fault the photographer for describing each image and the context as they saw it.

> This set of photos has gone viral and was presented "the latest ILLEGAL photographs smuggled out of the hermit kingdom" in many reputable media outlets.

Is that the media, or was the author/photographer also pushing that agenda? It's very poorly titled here on HN as of now. The author mentions recovering an image once or twice from what I saw, but the title here suggests they are all rare and special images. I guess the question is, should we fault and be overly critical of the author because of how others pushed his work, or should be try to assess the author on his own merits and fault the media for their part in the circus (assuming the author was not pushing this view, which I know nothing about).

> Is that the media, or was the author/photographer also pushing that agenda?

I have to say both in this case.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/46ahkv/illegal_photo_...

That picture is the first of a pair from this location in his second gallery (linked by someone here in the comments), and the description on reddit lines up with his comments on the slide:

In North Korea, there are places you can visit and places you cannot visit, and the latter are far more numerous. Well, this is one of them. Usually, we were accompanied by our guides, one in the front, one in the back. But at one point they were both in the front, which allowed for a literally 15-second long detour into this ordinary shop for North Koreans. That gave me maybe 10 seconds to take this and the following picture, before being kicked out by the bad cop, and the atmosphere became rather unpleasant. I'm not sure if he saw me taking these pictures.

He repeats that verbatim in one of the reddit comments, and adds "Also, I've got a photo album with the photos of my journey into North Korea, if anyone is interested." I don't really see that as the photographer trying to pass all the images off as special, he specifically linked this one image from that gallery, and clearly distinguishes between this image, and others from his trip. Whether this image is really special or not is another story, but I don't really doubt that the author believes it's special due to the circumstances he took it in (it could easily have been the guides trying to exert general control, not specifically that they viewed this location off-limits).

As another commenter here noted, it's possible he was sold an "experience" by the tour company he chose, and they were playing to the group. In any case, there's definitely a lot of popular mythology at play with regard to North Korea, intensified by the lack of useful information, and this all plays into that, which I'm sure it's one of the reasons it's gaining so much traction. People like the idea of him having to smuggle out the pictures, whether or not that's an accurate description of what happened or what he's really saying. I don't wonder at why it's being spread that way, even if I do lament it.

> As another commenter here noted, it's possible he was sold an "experience" by the tour company he chose, and they were playing to the group. In any case, there's definitely a lot of popular mythology at play with regard to North Korea, intensified by the lack of useful information, and this all plays into that, which I'm sure it's one of the reasons it's gaining so much traction. People like the idea of him having to smuggle out the pictures, whether or not that's an accurate description of what happened or what he's really saying. I don't wonder at why it's being spread that way, even if I do lament it.

I just had a chance to go through the second gallery and this is pretty much the same conclusion I have arrived at. A lot of information he tries to pass as facts are well-debunked myths that he swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Perhaps the word "agenda" is a little bit harsh, it feels more like ignorance/naivety than malice. After all, it is just another sad episode of regurgitated stale narrative being passed around as something novel.

North Korea is it's own, special form of evil which has developed nukes at the expense of nearly their entire GDP, most work is compelled, executed a general by antiaircraft gun, keeps people from escaping, still technically at war (ceasation of hositilities but still points AKs across the border) with the South and starves millions to death. Perhaps the mentioning of Godwin's law is itself groupthink dismissing legitimate "evil" suspects like Drumpf, Assad, Putin, Daesh, etc., that need more nuanced discussion, not shutting down. Shutting down is for tinfoil hat "micro-aggressions" and bikeshedding femto-issues, not ruthless regimes which genocidally-eradicate their own populace to ensure their own survival.

Godwin's law has come full circle to the point where it's invoked even where the comparisons make sense. The Nazi party of WWII and the atrocities committed by them are not entirely incomparable, even if they are often used hyperbolically. Reserving a special place for those actions and refusing comparison invites us to ignore when the comparisons are apt, and to see the connections where they are relevant.

In some respects, North Korea is far worse than Nazism ever was (such as in its fanatacism), but in others it's nowhere near (such as the Holocaust, unless the situation there is far, far worse than anyone knows).

> Drumpf

Ha! Someone likes their John Oliver. :)

WW2 was a significant event in world history, it has relevance in many areas. It's also a great example of unique issues. It undoubtedly has relevance to many, varied subjects. as such, Godwins law is unproductive memetic junk.

> > Drumpf

> Ha! Someone likes their John Oliver. :)

#MakeDonaldDrumpfAgain

>executed a general by antiaircraft gun

Whatever your opinion of the DPRK may be there is no reason to regurgitate rather lazy and unimaginative propaganda such as this.

Good rebuttal. Thanks for replying.

> Condescending? This is an enslaved country with concentration many times larger than anything the Nazis cooked up. It's hard to condescend to one of the great evils in history.

Well, for starters, comparing the people who live in North Korea to animals is one way.

> It's quite incredible to witness Chinese or South Korean tourists interacting with North Korean fishermen - it reminded me of safaris is [sic] East Africa. You keep wondering, what are the North Koreans really thinking?

And that's only on the fourth slide.

I don't think he's comparing them to animals. I think he's saying that they're being treated like animals.

Yeah, people from New Orleans said the same regarding the bus tours of the poorest zones (esp. Lower 9th), that it made their neighbourhood feel like a zoo.

I definitely disagree with your interpretation of the photographer's comments. I found them rather interesting and not "cringe". His page is not a tech blog with how-tos on how to use your camera, so if that is what you were expecting, I can understand why you are disappointed. But actually, his page is for showing photographs and sharing information about the country, much of it was rather insightful while brief. The motivated spectator can then google details about your camera's firmware for the next time you travel to North Korea yourself.

> much of it was rather insightful while brief

Much of it was misinformed or plain wrong. The particulars has been extensively discussed in this thread.

> The motivated spectator can then google details about your camera's firmware for the next time you travel to North Korea yourself.

The photographer appears to use Nikon SLRs which I am familiar with (I have a Df and has been using Nikon for the past decade). A handful of old models had homebrew firmware patches but it was mostly for shooting video[0]. There has been no new releases since.

Can somebody point me where to look? Googling turned up nothing like what's been described in the linked gallery.

[0]http://www.diyphotography.net/hacked-nikon-firmware-allows-m...

I also found the captions off putting and unnecessary, so much so that I felt compelled to tell him as much on his facebook page.

Having spent a considerable amount of time in eastern Europe (where the photographer is from), it has been my observation that, at least anecdotally, considerably more people from these regions (as opposed to more mature democracies) are emotionally unprepared to look at political issues from a neutral perspective. His comments are heavy with his own experiences and prejudices. It's an understandable reaction to growing up in a repressive regime however it seems highly biased to more neutral observers.

Thank you, I was trying to say something along similar lines in another comment but you summed it up more eloquently.

That's an interesting comment for me to read as someone born in Eastern Europe. I can sort-of see what you mean from my own experiences, but I'm not entirely sure if I'm guilty of that as well.

What would it mean for you to "look at political issues from a neutral perspective"?

To me at least it means to understand the geopolitical sphere from first principles. To achieve this I think it is necessary to have studied and understood the history of and the art form of propaganda and to be able to analyse media from this perspective, regardless of it's source and regardless of whether or not it confirms your world view.

I would also like to add that it requires a strong aptitude for multistep thinking.

That's kind of vague, though, and is laden with the assumption that YOU understand the world "from first principles" and the ones disagreeing with you don't.

Especially your second comment strikes me as quite arrogant. "I know what I'm talking about because I can do lateral thinking, and the brainwashed masses clearly do not".

The way I see it, anyone with a university-or-equivalent education tends to believe that what-they-know is some absolute truth of the world and "the other side" is somehow brainwashed by their respective media or government, whether "capitalist" or "communist".

Can you tell me what these "first principles" are that you use to understand geopolitics? Can you justify to me that this set of first principles is necessary and sufficient for a complete understanding of the topic in question? That there exists no other principle that you've ignored without which your understanding is incomplete?

Or.. are you just using your world-view to make yourself feel good about how clever you are?

Admittedly I found it hard to verbalise and perhaps I didn't do it justice. I don't claim to know any absolute truths (actually I don't believe they exist when it comes to politics). I have spent a great deal of time and thought into seeing multiple sides of arguments. I often see the lack of this ability in people who share the same world view as I do.

>the other side

You've really misunderstood me if you think this is about taking sides.

I would characterise first principles to be things like 'who benefits in this situation' and 'what is the historical context of the situation'. Essentially it comes down to not taking sides and looking at situations from everyones and no ones perspective.

I'm aware that it's never possible to 100% escape ones conditioning and we've all be conditioned in one way or another, either purposefully or not. You really don't need me to tell you that certain people are far more susceptible to their conditioning purely based on the fact that they're not even aware of the possibility that they have been conditioned at all. I wouldn't take offence by anything I said as while I did single out Eastern Europeans it's not exactly a unique phenomenon to any locality, it purely reflects my experiences. I've also met plenty of Eastern Europeans to whom this doesn't apply at all.

Thanks for your follow up!

Yes, it does look like I misunderstood your position a bit. It wasn't that I took offence as an "eastern european" (I moved out a decade ago and prefer to have as little to do with the place as I can), but more so as a computer scientist it's ingrained in me to respond to a claim of knowing something from "first principles" by asking what those principles are.

I agree with you that the two that you've mentioned are excellent starting points. In that light, yes, those are not the kind of things that the people I grew up around tended to do. (Or like you say, not a thing that a lot of people anywhere tend to do).

I guess like you, I've spent a lot of time looking at all the sides of an issue that I can find, but I guess I reached a point where I'm just like "so what now?" For all that analysis, I never really figured out what to do with it.

agreed. And actually for me, the pictures are nearly indistinguishable from what I've seen in India and Thailand. nothing shocking about minimalist infrastructure in a 3rd world country unless you have never been out of the 1st world.

Wait, you're comparing a commissioned body of work with those of tourists and complain the tourists don't take the same kind of pictures?

Is that like saying tourists who come to America and take pictures don't take the same kinds of pictures Robert Frank took?

Or that tourists to Russia don't measure up to Simon Roberts's photographs?

In fact they have a nice vernacular quality to them.

I know this comment has been criticized a lot, and rightly so. As the last picture of train station with "elegant men and beautiful women" acting to look the station busy, is by itself so much of a story, as to make me want more of it.

(And I hate that this is the top comment. As its almost off topic, and has utterly non interesting commentary, in contrast to the pictures which offer us so much - again I hark back to the last telling photograph - I will surely be tuned for more photos from this travelogue.)

Did we see the same page? I am trying to find the offensive wording. If being blunt if offensive then as a society we are failing. Just like some of the old Warsaw pact North Korea is surreal at times. The extent to which they go to control information and what is seen or not seen is not much different than the Soviet Union and Warsaw pact.

I have seen other picture galleries and the stark truth is how empty it all looks, abandoned even. It is the "post nuclear war people coming back and surviving look" that many authors write.

>we see the same set of trains, roads, hotels and attractions that they have really got boring

I'd love to see pictures from the acted scenes (subway) over a series of days, weeks, years. The "travellers" who are leaving every day.

Like The Truman Show.

Describing anything as cringe is itself becoming cringe.

Ghastly would have been a wiser choice of word, but the meaning remains the same.

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