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Come to Montreal! It's great here. No way would I want to pledge the rest of my life to a bank in exchange for the right to exist. Rent controls here.

It's odd: it's like the state understands that banks are bastards.

Montreal has some issues with organised crime but nothing compared to the organised crime of banking / money laundering through land. I don't have to pay some gangster $1MM for a shack.

Leave the boomers to their trinkets kids. Walk away. They need your labour, the rest is just paper.

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- It has some ridiculous language issues. We have the OQLF which goes from business to business to fine anyone not adhering to the French language laws. We once got fined for having the accent the wrong way in our signage, and again for having the wrong verb conjugation in our tagline.

- Dumbfounding Bureaucratic issues. Once when I went to University, I was able to prove to the Provincial Gov, that I lived in Quebec, but the same documents were not accepted by the Federal Gov to prove that I lived in Canada. Meaning I could prove that I lived in Quebec, but not that I lived in Canada.

- And it was named the most corrupt Province in Canada. http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-most-corrupt-province...

I'm pretty sure that the OQLF works on a complaint basis.

Pretty sure no one complained about this.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/burgundy-lion-oqlf-1....

Also, as soon as my friend's company who does most of her business to the States got to a certain amount of employees, they had their agents come in to switch out all of the keyboards and software into French, and advised to make internal emails communications in French as well.

From that article:

>A spokesman for the OQLF said the letter is only for information purposes, and there are no penalties involved. The agency's goal, Jean-Pierre Le Blanc said, is to let business owners know that French-language versions of such promotional stickers exist.

>"This is one of about 300 to 400 letters we sent this month to businesses," said Le Blanc. "It's not an investigation. It's not a complaint. It's an incentive."

I suspect that the keyboard anecdote is inflated.

However, the official work language is French, but that is only because we don't want the majority to become second-class citizens..

EDIT - Removed Original Comment

You know what, I'm getting emotional on the Internet.

I'm going to stop arguing here. It's not productive, and there's nothing to prove.

As I said when they rack up $500K corruption I'll have equivalent living costs to Vancouver.

Part of why Montreal is still reasonably priced is because the French-language barrier to entry keeps a lot of jobseekers out.

The vast majority of Canadians outside of Quebec and the Ottawa region do not speak French. Sure, they all took French in high school, but most wouldn't be able to hold a conversation let alone conduct business in the language. Perhaps in some types of jobs with a lax rules about French proficiency, it would be OK, but you are unlikely to find a job listing in Montreal that doesn't state a requirement or "strong preference" for high-level French communication skills.

I visited Montreal a few years ago. I really really enjoyed it.

The city was a great mix. Big enough to wow a hick like me, but also felt accommodating, friendly, and cosy.

Great leisurely bicycling next to the river and canals.

All the french makes it feel like I'd traveled much further. I also tried making an effort to speak it, and unlike when visiting France, people actually had the good taste (or angelic patience) to indulge me.

It was somewhat expensive, but not obnoxiously so.

I know tourist experience a place differently than residents, but I can totally get it why it's a desirable place.

I did this with my wife for an anniversary. We're most certainly coming back when hitting a nice round number again.

Consider Quebec City as well - it is significantly more romantic for an anniversary occasion!

There has been a MASSIVE exodus to Quebec by Vancouver game developers. When the recession hit, it hit game development hard, and tons of companies shuttered, downsized, or disappeared overnight. Due to the stupid generous tax incentives to tech companies in Quebec, a lot of game studios remained open there, and developers followed.

The industry in Vancouver has since recovered, but with long-term stressor's like the housing issue; another jerk of the economic chain might catalyze another exodus.

I wonder how much climate is playing a factor in Vancouver's issues. Just from my perspective, I'd love to move to Vancouver, but would never, ever consider Montreal, not because it's not a beautiful city, but because of the harsh winters.

Other people don't seem to really care about weather extremes or scenery, etc. I have no insight into these real estate investors dumping money into property, sure if they aren't living there, there's some other factors involved.

I'd argue climate plays a bigger factor for people who actually want to live in Vancouver, rather than absentee investors.

That said, having grown up in Vancouver, I'd consider Montreal - seeing the sun in the fall/winter is a really nice concept I've gotten used to. I've gotten used to harsh cold of the east coast, but I never got used to the dreary vast grayness even though I spent most of my childhood in it.

Keep in mind that some people also like the climate of places like Vancouver. I would count myself among them. I moved from Dublin to San Diego (supposedly known for nice weather, somehow) and the weather here is awful; I can't do anything outside without becoming a sweaty mess 9 months of the year. Apparently it's been like this the last several years in a row, possibly indicating a substantial change in the norm, but people lie to themselves about how it's always pleasant here even while it's 90F.

I moved from Israel to Berlin and love the weather here (somewhere between oceanic and continental).

Don't. I'm seriously thinking about moving to Toronto right now. I have a Soft. Eng. degree from McGill and I can't find any business in this city that will pay me minimum wage.

Wat? Are you even trying? I didn't even finish my comp-sci degree at Concordia and since I've started working I've never had to go unemployed between jobs. If you're a skilled developer there is no reason why you should be unemployed right now.

E-mail me.

Problem is salary in Montreal are ridiculously low, and taxes in Quebec are higher than Ontario/British Colombia. Higher taxes should come with the benefit of more services: the health system is clogged and for non-french speaking families, the education system isn't the most friendly.

> Higher taxes should come with the benefit of more services

Daycare services in the province are absurdly cheap compared to anywhere else in the country.

Indeed. I love Montreal but the health care system in Quebec is absolutely ridiculous. It's not unusual to wait 12-15 hours at the ER. In Vancouver, without an appointment, you have to wait about 10 minutes to see a competent doctor.

Actually it is. Unless you are the kind of person to go to the ER for having sneezed once in the last 24 hours...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

"They need your labour, the rest is just paper."

I'm going to reuse that! I wish this kind of thinking about economy is more main stream.

The only issue with Montreal is, not speaking French will disqualify you from a few different kinds of jobs.

The forecast high temps for Montreal this weekend are -5F/-21C and 0F/-18C. The forecast high temps for Vancouver, BC this weekend are 48F/9C and 49F/11C. I suspect this is a bigger contributor to housing prices than "money laundering" -- it's one of the only places in Canada with a reasonable climate.

This is almost certainly one of the issues with Bay area real estate as well. Yes, especially of late it's been driven up a lot by tech. But it also has what many people consider just about a perfect climate (SF admittedly less so than the South Bay)--as well as great access to recreational opportunities.

How's the tech scene in MTL?

Probably second to only SF in North America for the game industry, SFX for the film industry is also big here.

what site(s) should I be using to look for jobs in Montreal in software? My background is in mechatronics but a ton of the embedded engineering jobs I've seen require some French language skills.

If you are not interested in learning French you'll have a hard time finding a job in Montreal.

Is that really accurate? I've heard that the tech sector in Montreal is actually pretty lenient about English, and there's ways startups get around bilingual regulations by mainly catering to American/Anglophone markets, which is a loophole they can use. Have seen a good amount of commentary saying that programmers in Montreal don't need to speak a lick of French for their jobs.

I'm not saying it is impossible, however bilingualism is often required in Montreal. Also, once the startup gets to a certain size(I'm not sure if it is over 30 or 50 employees) they have additional restrictions imposed by the OQLF.

I'd love to improve my French, but would probably like to do it while working at a new job, not before a job

If you are in Quebec once, try to speak French even if you struggle. You'll see most people will go pretty far to help you.

In any cases, feel free to message me in French if you need practice.

are games even that big in SF?

but I don't want to live in Quebec.

i think i love you

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