Why I killed my standing desk | Hacker News Reader

Why I killed my standing desk

medium.com

32 pointsfluxic53 comments

The latter half of the article set all kinds of alarm bells ringing, starting with the pseudoscientific Air squats are one of the best ways to release enzymes that breakdown the production of fat in your body. So what's the evidence for that? Following the link, the page you land at does not mention enzymes at all. Moreover, it's by Mercola, who has his own page on quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html)

So I looked at some of the other links, and point 1 about raising your legs cites...the Daily Mail. Not a reliable source, and particularly pilloried for its medical coverage, see eg https://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/

The article is fine as an anecdote about the author's failed attempts to use a standing desk, but it's not persuasive evidence.

My work environment: standing desk with big monitor. And a low coffee table at the right height for putting the laptop on and sitting on the floor.

And of course taking the laptop out for a walk to a cafe or park. Variety.

Except right now the coffee table is covered with Lego castles because I got this toy dragon princess who demands a pretty place to live in. These things happen and you have to work around them.

Millions upon millions of workers are on their feet for 8+ hours a day. Imagine that!

Guy can't stand up for more than 4 hours, writes complaints on Medium. Articles like this are why the tech industry gets a bad name.

They don't stand still though. That's not a comparison.

Generally those workers are also moving around, not standing absolutely still with their arms held out in front of them. Standing desks don't insulate you from the need for frequent breaks.

If you're standing absolutely still at your standing desk, you're kind of crazy. I'm constantly moving; right now I'm sort of idly shifting back and forth from left foot to right. And my arms aren't held out in front of me, they're at my sides and bent loosely at the elbow to reach my keyboard and mouse. When I'm not typing and just thinking a bit, I stick my hands in my pockets, too--I don't leave them sitting on the desk.)

I often find myself with my arms behind my back while I wait for my script/application/web page to finish/load

I think it's why Medium is getting a bad name. I used to associate it with high-quality articles, seems they just let anyone in nowadays.

I think it's just making me turn against blogging rather than Medium in particular. It's as if the world collectively decided in January of 2015 to start every article with "Why I took a bath" or "How standing became sitting". Not every little thing in the universe needs an article written about it. But I'm a hypocrite, I just read that entire post and now I have sour grapes about it. That's more of a lesson for me about wasting my time more than anything.

You should write a blog post! :)

When I worked one of those jobs, I would make sure to pop some ibuprofen before every shift, because it's hell on the feet.

Yeah. I've been standing about 8 hours every day for over a year now, taking short breaks on a "saddle seat". I dread sitting in an office chair now. I also do weighted squats regularly which probably helps. It takes a long time to adjust, but it was worth it.

I've been meaning to try out a balance board for some extra variation too - something like FluidStance or Wurf Board.

I really like throwing in a balance board for variation!

I made a 3d-printable balance board dome, you can use it to build something much like a FluidStance!

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1197183

He also misread the NYT story about the study showing "the death rate was higher in people that sat more than six hours per day."

No, that was for people who sat for more than six hours of their leisure time per day. Not the same thing.

I'm using a standing desk, but I'm sitting on it, cross-legged, with my monitor in my lap. Am I doing it wrong?

I use a standing desk because I have two herniated discs in my lower back, and if I sit for extended periods then I increase the risk of muscle spasms that last over a day.

I generally agree with the author's sentiment - if you don't need a standing desk then don't get one. But for crying out loud, don't write some authoritative-sounding Medium post about what you should do instead that cites questionable web sites and links to a random video of a Russian lady doing squats.

This is kind of a weird article to me. I've been using a standing desk for about...three years now? Somewhere around there. When I'm tired (which stopped being a major concern after about three weeks for me, but if I'm standing for a couple hours straight without doing much moving it can be a little annoying) I pull up my draft-height chair, which I got for a hundred bucks, and sit for a while. Then I stand again.

Was going to mention the same - my standing desk has a standing-height chair that I can take breaks in without interrupting my productivity... This (along with not accepting that acclimation to standing all day would take some time to adjust) seems to be the missing piece of the puzzle for the author.

Man that author is spreading so much ignorance. He is a defeatist. He didn't figure out how to stand properly so now he is on some mission to justify his own failure. Standing desks are not the answer unless you have good standing posture and know how to move. He makes a few decent points but then he smears them together in a completely idiotic way. It's more complicated than he would have readers believe.

Isn't this just basic psychology then when you fail at something you try to justify why you didn't want to do it anyway? i.e. Tickets to the concert are sold out -> "I didn't want to go see Black Sabbath anyways. They aren't that good and they're too expensive anyways."

You need to get used to it like anything else.

I'm a few weeks into using a self-built standing desk[1] and I don't even realize I'm standing anymore.

Yesterday I stood for 15 hours and walked 3 miles and at the 15th hour I barely felt different than when I started the day. I took (2) 10min sitting breaks for meals.

[1] http://blog.nickjanetakis.com/post/137161793153/build-home-m...

>> You need to get used to it like anything else.

Totally. I used boxes and makeshift platforms to test whether standing was for me. My first day was brutal. The only thing that ran through my mind was "What was I thinking?"

After a couple of days though, it was second nature. My knees do get tight, but it forces me to do squats to stretch them out -- not a bad thing, IMO.

I have a similar setup to yours, except for the keyboard platform, I used an inexpensive shoe shelf [1] and a vertically oriented VESA monitor stand [2] for my 2 27" monitors.

On the odd occasion that I want my laptop elevated, I use an articulating laptop stand [3] to the left of my keyboard platform. In this case, I use Microsoft's Mouse Without Borders to "extend" my desktop's workspace to the laptop.

Like the author of the linked post, I have to sit down for some types of tasks ("deep thinking" stuff like planning or design) but in those cases, I just use my laptop and sit down somewhere. Recently, I added an Ikea stool to my setup [4] that seems to be designed for their sit-stand desks.

It's not the nicest setup, I'm thinking of something more permanent, like building a standing workstation into an IKEA PAX wall unit.

[1] http://www.homedepot.com/p/ClosetMaid-Selectives-24-in-White...

[2] https://secure.img1.wfrcdn.com/lf/187/hash/31565/13889834/1/...

[3] http://pcbuild.qoeeky.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/9e2bf91...

[4] http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/60279570/

Nice set up. Your [1] looks like a good match for a keyboard shelf.

You know what's funny. A lot of those tall chairs cost $100-150ish. I actually contemplated buying a cheap $200ish laptop instead of a chair, simply because the laptop has much more utility. Then I would just sit with a normal chair and use the laptop for breaks.

My plan was to wait a month or so and see how things panned out before buying anything for sitting. So far I don't feel like I need one.

Haven't ran into any deep thinking issues lately. Currently I'm in the middle of planning an online course out which does require some thinking but I haven't noticed it being harder to think while standing.

At the start it definitely affected me when all I could think about was how bad I wanted to sit.

I actually had trouble finding something for my keyboard. I use a "gaming" (ugh, I hate that label) keyboard that's quite wide, but I'm not willing to give up the macro keys for something smaller.

I finally realized a shoe shelf would do it. I think I paid $20 CAD for it. I think it's half the price in the US. It looks as cheap as it costs though. Originally I thought it would be a stepping stone to a Varidesk, but now I realize I can get away with a stand-only setup if I just got a stool.

FWIW, I just bought the stool a couple of weeks ago, so it took me around a year of standing to pull the trigger.

I've been looking at chairs for a while, but like you said, they can get expensive (I had my eye on the Humanscale Pony Saddle [1]). I don't sit for long periods of time on the stool, just here and there to take the weight off.

At $60 CAD, I figured the Ikea Nilserik was probably a low risk purchase compared to something >= 2X the price. You obviously get what you pay for, but if you're not planning to sit most of the time, it works out fine.

[1] https://www.humanscale.com/products/product.cfm?group=Freedo...

This is ridiculous. After years of avoiding standing for continuous periods, the author tries standing for a few hours, can't do it, and then thinks it's worth sharing with the world?

Try standing a little longer - you realize people generally get better at physical things as they try them?

Previous discussion of this article on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9275623

I just got a walking desk set up in my home office with an old used treadmill and some cinder blocks. It's fantastic. I've tried doing just a standing desk and had a lot of the same problems the author mentions - my legs would get achy and I couldn't get in to a flow. While walking I don't have that problem. In fact I daresay my focus increases while walking. I've done about 50 miles on it so far and I feel great.

I see a few issues with this post (as others have).

1. He has a wood floor. They are hard and he should have compensated, either with more than a yoga mat, and better shoes, or Dr. Scholls inserts, etc.

2. A tall chair. The standing benefits are for people who move around, not simply stand in place for eight hours.

No need for a $2k motorized desk that moves, a simple $100 tall chair will do the trick as you can alternate standing and sitting throughout the day.

If anyone is looking for a good, buy-it-for-life floor mat, I highly recommend the Topo Mat.[1] It is like a playground for your feet! It encourages constant shifting of your feet and has these rubbery ridges that are fun to stand on. I am not affiliated with them or ergo depot.

http://www.ergodepot.com/Topo_Standing_Mat_p/afmtsm.htm

Why didn't he get a desk that raises and lowers? Then if you're in the zone but are tired of standing, just lower the desk and sit down.

Another case for moderation in all things. If you're tired of standing, then sit for a while. If you're tired of sitting, then stand for a while. Don't build a $22 IKEA desk. If you spend 100% of your work day at a desk, then make the investment in yourself and get an adjustable setup.

or just get yourself a bar stool… I’m a little baffled by why more folks trying this don’t keep one around at least for while they’re adjusting to it

Draft-height chairs are great for this. So's my exercise bike, which fits perfectly under my desk if I take the handlebars off.

That is some serious overanalyzing. Everyone's body and environment are different. Get something adjustable or rig it to be makeshift, go about your day. Buying into marketing ("sitting is the new smoking" is just that, marketing) is always going to be misleading.

I will say, I was happy to see the 135 degree angle mentioned. If you meditate, you know how much posture and physical positioning can impact your state of consciousness.

Having an upright spine (standing/kneeling/sitting with a stacked spine) facilitates an alert, problem solving state of consciousness.

But for less mentally intensive tasks (code cleanup, research, intra-day relaxation) reclining in a "zero gravity" position is an ideal restorative posture. We don't need to be upright for all types of work!

Individual productivity is intimately linked to spinal positioning and physical comfort. I've been working on creating a product to elegantly facilitate multiple working postures. If anyone is interested, DM me and I'd love to chat about it!

It was hard for me to get into a flow while standing.

This takes practice.

When words are flowing, leg fatigue shouldn’t cut a writing session short. When I’m “wired in”, I don’t want to have to think about the discomfort in my lower back. I just want to think about my work.

I have a sit-stand desk: http://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-des.... Best of both worlds! When I'm in the zone I often get up, walk a little, and then continue working anyway. Putting it from sitting to standing or vice versa doesn't disrupt flow, at least for me.

>Best of both worlds!

Exactly; there is no panacea. The purpose of "standing desks" was to prevent workers from sitting all day. But the sitting or standing are secondary to the moving.

I agree it's important to have an adjustable sit-stand if you're going to have a standing desk. I can't see standing for 8-10 hours as any better than sitting for 8-10 hours (and I'm sure if you know anyone who works retail, they'd agree). It's especially convenient to have one with electric motors so you don't have to sit there and hand crank it, and they even have desks with a "memory" so you can save different heights and then just press one button to move from sit to stand or stand to sit.

Of course, like you and the original post mentioned, you should still be getting up and moving around every now and then. If you've just wrapped something up and can take a break, try doing some stretches for a while, or even some light cardio like the "7-minute workout".

This author has their priorities wrong. I'm 37, so the physical health of my body is priority #1. Without a standing desk, I frankly wouldn't be able to write code any more due to constant neck pain.

Do you have other suggestions for reducing neck pain? I'm 30 but I experience it very often. I just got a standing desk but wonder if that's enough.

Having your screen at the right height might help.

If you're a laptop user, it makes things more difficult - you'll probably have to elevate your laptop and get an external keyboard.

This is why I have a sit/stand desk. Often I'll start the day sitting, then once I've achieved a good flow, I'll switch to standing (usually in the early afternoon).

I sat on one of these for a while: http://www.amazon.com/Salli-happy-ergonomic-seating-SS-TW-L5...

Extortionately priced, but I liked the hip angle, and mobility it encouraged, and the fact that you were so close to standing height that you could easily move between sitting and standing (still need a sit-stand desk though).

The author spends a lot of time discussing the findings that moderate walking is so good for your health, but then doesn't ever try to throw a treadmill under the desk. I've been working at my treadmill desk for about 3 months and I absolutely love it. However, I can't stand stationary for very long. That hurts my whole body after an hour or so. But let me walk slowly at about a mile an hour and my body feels great all day.

Wow, there's a lot in this article. For me the standing desk is not a EITHER stand all damn day no matter how much it hurts OR sit all day. It's stand some, sit some. Stand when I feel like it, or it feels right. Sit when I feel like it, or if it feels right. But having this desk at least gives me the option. I feel like the author made it I MUST STAND NO MATTER WHAT and then said nope, I shall sit.

I don't quite get why the author thinks has to be a binary either. Standing up for 8 hours a day has its health consequences too (if not more).

When I sourced my desk at IKEA I spent an extra $20 on a bar-height chair that folds up. I can stand when I want and sit when I want. The trick is to alternate actively.

Apparently, this has nothing to do with their far healthier diet than the average American, in the author's eyes.

Also, teaching people to do bodyweight squats with their torso leaning forward and stopping well below parallel is just bad, bad, bad.

You shouldn't expect to stand 8 hours a day. Get a sit stand desk. Stand when you feel like standing, sit when you feel like sitting.

If standing for long time was such a great thing, all those hordes of retail workers would be thriving in health and joy.

I am not saying sitting is all that great, but standing all time is not solution. Sensible approach to everything is what wins and we lack those.

I think the relevant bits are in the second half of the article. Squats, stretches and general moving around is good for anyone who has a sedentary job. Too much sitting or standing is not a good idea overall.

I've been programming while sitting in a position that resembles a curled up prawn, for about 25 years now.

Zero back problems. My posture is a bit shitty, but my income makes up for it.

I like to sit down instead of stand. Just make sure to change your posture all the time. Fidgeting is good. And stand up to do something at least once every 15-30 minutes.

The chair he has in a picture (IKEA Markus) gave me a huge back pain also it is not very good at supporting you in 135 degree position.

I lol'd at this trend the second I heard about it. Friggin' hipsters.

Here you go: google.com/search?q=define+moderation

Reply on news.ycombinator.com