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Comment by stormbrew | Hacker News Reader

sigh Another laptop with plenty of room for another column of keys on the right omitting discreet home/end/pgup/pgdn keys for no good reason.

Really tired of bad ideas like this becoming universal traits.

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For me personally a centred keyboard is much more important than a separate number block. When touch typing I don't need the number block, but typing text on a left-aligned keyboard "hurts". For me it was even the criteria for having bought a 14" laptop instead of a 15" (ThinkPad). But then I have special requirements.

I can understand that for people using arrow keys a lot or entering tons of numbers the extra number block is important. I have seen several times that accountants bought external number blocks because their laptops didn't have it (and I think because in France entering numbers is extra difficult due to the AZERTY layout - you have to press SHIFT for the digits).

So it's really about ergonomy due to habits. I think the best would be if vendors would provide several keyboard options - centred, with or without trackpoint, different layouts even in non-US countries (this is something that Lenovo provides for ThinkPads and I am very happy about).

I did not say anything about -- nor do I want -- a number block on a laptop.

The keyboard would become more off centered. Without the extra keys, the F and J keys are already slightly off centered because of the quote key.

edit: What if this column were on the left of the keyboard to offset the quote key? Then the keyboard would be symmetric with respect to the F and J keys.

I for one prefer a simple keyboard layout, no number pad, no extra cruft, never use them

First off, a number pad is really not even in the running as something any laptop less than 17" should even have, so bringing it up is a bit silly here.

But, I would not really have an issue with there being laptops that don't have them if it weren't for the fact that it has become a near universal trait of laptops, even when there's plenty of bezel to accommodate them.

Some of us do use those keys, and having that option would be nice.

Number pads are significantly faster than using the number keys. They really are worth learning how to use.

I almost never enter tons of numbers, so having a numpad isn't very useful for me. Especially since the fact that you have to leave home row means that there's an initial penalty to using the numpad that makes it significantly less useful for sequences of numbers <4-5 in length.

Not having a numpad means my keyboard takes up significantly less space on my desk and means mousing is more ergonomic; not having one on my laptop makes it much prettier and lets me have nice speaker grills.

I suspect that this is true of the vast majority of people, except maybe accountants, data entry folks, and some scientists. But I generally do finance, math, and programming just fine without a numpad.

It's more than just numbers.

IP addresses 127.192.168.00.1

You can enter many calculations quickly: 327.5 / 15.3 * 7

[enter] also means you can add type in a column on numbers quickly which is useful for setting up spreadsheets or depending on software time sheets etc. Teachers often enter lot's of grades at the same time etc etc.

The downside is wider keyboard. But, you can just use a separate USB device.

At a huge cost of moving the keyboard off-center, no thanks.

USB to the rescue.

http://www.amazon.com/V7-Ergonomic-Resistant-Notebook-KP0N1-...

That's much better, perhaps they have one for a full size home/end arrow block? ;)

If you do enough data entry to justify them, yes. Can't say I've used mine in a very long time.

Fn+arrows for home/end/pgup/pgdn isn't as bad as other alternatives.

Agreed. Between my XPS and the Macbook Pro I have for work, the latter's keyboard is infinitely more annoying due to the lack of page up, page down, home, end, etc.

MBPs also use Fn+Arrow Keys for page up/down/home/end.

Depends on the application: http://superuser.com/a/132722

It's inconsistent enough to be frustrating.

On a mac (which, as far as I can tell, is what started this trend) this is all less of an issue because home/end/pgup/pgdn act in ways that are generally less useful on OSX. Mac users are trained to not bother by default (much like with the maximize button).

As a workaround I'm trying https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/shortkeys-custom-k... [ and ] set to pgup/pgdn.

It mostly works, but I've found I still don't use it as often as would the real keys.

Just based on the photo showing the two models, it looks like a case of corporate synergy. It looks like they just dropped the 13" keyboard into the 15" tray, saving mechanical, electrical and software engineering effort.

This is the reason I bought the 3rd gen lenovo carbon and not the xps. Not to mention the keyboard is superb and very coder friendly.

I had the X1 carbon 3rd gen and I have the XPS 13 9350 right now, I don't see a lot of differences in the keyboard. Why do you like the ThinkPad one better?

I think the carbon keys have much better travel, and best of all, dedicated Home/End/PG Up/Down keys. Those are priceless to me.

I had trouble finding the specific generation you are referring to, do you have a link?

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1-ca...

Thanks!

I'd rather suffer along on my XPS 13 after Lenovo's Superfish fiasco.

There is no Superfish anymore, not to mention I'm running Linux anyway. Besides, rest assured you are not safe with anyone, anywhere. Everyone is spying on you, and they are all very keen to know what you're up to. Knowing that, I am happy with the Lenovo.

It really seems like Dell is trying as hard as it can to not really present any kind of danger to Apple.

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