Comment by azernik | Hacker News Reader

Comment by azernik | Hacker News Reader

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WRT obesity, there is a big drive to recognize that this is not a really controllable impulse (appetite and metabolism differences are strongly biologically determined) and a lot if the effort (diets, for example, or low-calorie substitutes) goes into figuring out how to fulfill the impulse while reducing the harm - similar to STD protection and birth control.

WRT socializing, we definitely have norms about controlling the drive to socialize, but I don't know many people who advocate complete isolation.

Similarly with sex. What you characterize as a "you can't control biological impulses" position usually specifically targets abstinence - that is not a fight you can win. But those same people are often totally in favor of more limited control of the sex drive. Laws against rape (statutory or otherwise), norms against romances on the workplace or military service where a power imbalance exists, norms against just plain moving too fast with someone new - these are all very broadly supported.

I think we need to define abstinence a bit more carefully. In most cases, it's meant as a temporary thing, not permanent virginity.

Teens: Don't have sex till later, you don't want babies yet.

Women in this country: Don't have sex till later, you don't want babies with birth defects.

Church: Don't have sex till later (marriage), you'll offend God

So what is the substantial difference between the socially accepted "don't have sex in the military, wait till you're out" and the quickly becoming socially unaccepted "don't have sex for this set period of time"? You just did it right here, characterizing it as a fight you can't win.

It seems... strange, to expect responsibility and prioritization of biological goals from people at some times and not others.

It's not really that strange when you think about it. We are animals that have biological urges. However, we are social animals that live in a society. As a result, we must balance our biological pressures with our societal ones.

Let's just take the first example - teens who do not want to get pregnant.

I'm not sure what you find strange about this. Teenagers will feel the desire to have sex, but they (and/or their families) will be aware that having a baby at a young age can limit your freedom later in life. Thus, teenagers are told to either wait until they are older to have sex, or be sure to use contraception.

> It seems... strange, to expect responsibility and prioritization of biological goals from people at some times and not others.

Control over our base biological goals is a key part of what makes us civilised.

The military does not demand abstinence from sex for years - if they did, it would be an epic disaster. The relationships (sexual and social) that are prohibited are very specific in nature [1]. Soldiers have sex with civilians when on leave in the countries where they're stationed, they have sex with other soldiers they they don't have command authority over and that aren't in the same small unit, they have sex when they're back home between tours.

[1](http://www.army.mil/article/138222/Army_updates_reg_defining...)

Please address the central point rather that seizing on an ambiguity in my post.

That point being, that sexual activity in the armed forces is still controlled and sometimes that drive cannot be satisfied for relatively long periods, and this is commonly accepted.

I am trying to address your central point. Your point is, as far as I can understand, "if it's okay for the military to control soldiers' sex lives in X, Y, and Z ways, why isn't it okay to similarly control teenager's and unmarried people's sex lives?"

But the kinds and degrees of control that work successfully are totally different from the kinds that you're suggesting. The "seizing on an ambiguity" is actually seizing on the fact that the policies you claim support abstinence's effectiveness are not policies of abstinence.

Again, you seem to conflate abstinence with permanent virginity. No, absolutely not.

This is really, really simple. Are you not supposed to have sexual contact for X period of time? If yes, you are abstinent for that period. The period varies, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, but the definition still applies.

That would classify "don't have sex until the weekend" as an abstinence policy, which is ridiculous.

If X period is repeating on and off on semi-regular schedule, then it's not an abstinence policy. That's just scheduling sex. If it's a single continuous period, then it might be an abstinence policy.

Or in other words, it needs to be semi permanent.

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