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Comment by darkstar999 | Hacker News Reader

> Before us are rows of cubicles, almost entirely inhabited by bearded, yarmulke-wearing men in crisp white shirts. These are Pikarski's buyers. (About half of C&A Marketing's 150-person staff is Orthodox, though the buyers division is more homogenous. "The buyer that does all the storage products, he's the only guy I let work out of home," Pikarski says. "He's Italian.")

Did that bother anyone else?

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Jews stick together. One of reasons for their resilience and business success. Unsurprising he brought a lot of his own in on the business. They do that in upper-ranks in my area, too.

Now, you probably won't see the media report on racist hiring practices in Jewish companies as quickly as they do anti-Semitism. ;)

I don't think it's a racist hiring practice, it's religious nepotism. Mormons and scientologists often stick together in the same way (and really probably any small group of people very closely connected; immigrants often initially do the same thing in a new country as well).

It's actually both. Religious nepotism often requires discrimination based on religion.

Jewish isn't a race. It isn't necessarily racial discrimination to just hire Jewish people (a Jewish person can be white, black, whatever).

Is it discrimination based on religion? Obviously.

I was referring to the fact that they mostly hire people that are (a) Jews and (b) Jewish. Jew is a race that I'm aware of. So, it's usually racist and religious discrimination.

> Jew is a race that I'm aware of.

What? No. Ashkenazim might be genetically similar, but even there, not a race. And there are also Sephardim. Also Jews from Africa? Definitely not a race.

The references here seem to disagree:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jewish_Race

Particularly, this statement: "Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent.[58][59][60] The genetic composition of different Jewish groups shows that Jews share a common genetic pool dating back 4,000 years, as a marker of their common ancestral origin."

That Jew/Hebrew isn't a race is a very new claim to me. What do you have to support it?

> What do you have to support it?

Is Christian a race?

Also, this (PDF warning): https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf181.pdf.

We're talking about a people that share a common origin, physical traits, and genetic patterns. Not a religious doctrine.

The other commenter thinks that race doesn't exist. Most stuff I've read implied it did. Nobody doubts the existence of Christian religion.

If it was a race as we contemplate race in its current definition, it would be on the government form I posted.

It isn't. It's not a race like that (nor, really, in any other way).

Yes, some Jews have a common genetic pattern.

Many don't.

Either you're talking about the religion, which is clearly not a race (as you said). Or you're talking about a group that generally shares the same religion, that descended from a few groups that lived co-located thousands of years ago. Of course, many are descended from those groups. What makes that a race?

And I didn't mention Christianity to ask if anyone doubted it existed. I mentioned Christianity to show how silly it is to consider Jews a race. If Christianity isn't a race (even though many Christians descend from a common ancestor), then Jews aren't a race.

- Technically, if you are a Christian, you probably believe you descended from Adam & Eve, sort of the ultimate common ancestor.

Finally, a comment with some specific counterpoints. I appreciate it. So, you're saying that many works just wrongly conflate concepts of a group and race to the point that there's a misconception about the existence of a Jewish race? Also, given the form, that there are only 5 races in existence?

Sorry for taking forever to reply.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I think the 5 races on the form conform to my understanding of race, so I think that part is right as well.

I guess fundamentally I can't wrap my head around the idea of identifying a religious group and calling that a race. As I mention, we don't do it with any other religious group, so why Jews?

If Jewish people are disproportionately some races rather than others (and they are), wouldn't that also qualify as racial discrimination under the "disparate impact" reasoning?

I'm not sure it is though. If you have a tight nit community, and you tend to hire those you know best... In that case the filter isn't religion, it's social familiarity.

It's still technically illegal if they turn down qualified applicants for jobs that were not the same religion/sect/cult.

Just guessing, but they probably just post Yiddish only job ads in the local Jewish paper (there are plenty in North Jersey and NYC).

You know how they say most jobs from from personal leads? That's all it is.

"Hey we need someone else for a customer service position - you know anyone?" "Sure, my neighbor's son is looking a job."

"We're going to need about 150 employees at this business. Know anyone personally?"

"Yeah, about 70 Orthodox Jews and this one Italian dude who probably won't adhere to their culture. Might let him work from home."

I don't think a company is started by suddenly hiring 150 people.

Good catch. Mental slip on my part during a hasty reply.

Let's be specific. Orthodox Jews.

It's basically an society-accepted fanatical cult.

I bet none of those 150 were women, they wouldn't be tolerated to work together, or pray together, etc.

> I bet none of those 150 were women, they wouldn't be tolerated to work together, or pray together, etc.

You know nothing about Orthodox Jews do you?

At first, no it didn't bother me that it was culturally homogeneous -- I thought "Hey this guy is running his own business, that's great." Lots of small businesses that grow organically are confined to a single culture. After all, it was founded by two Orthodox Jews, former competitors, undoubtedly part of a business-friendly community with more contacts who were open to good employment.

But now I think you bring up a fair point, and as they grow, they're probably facing pressure to diversify. Their numbers will start looking suspicious, and it will get harder to find employees within the same community, if nothing else. And how they handle it will affect their company culture and reputation for sure.

Inclusiveness can be hard work; in an ideal world, it would develop organically, with time to learn as they go. I'm sure it will go better if they work at it proactively rather than resist it. But they live in a multi-cultural city, so I'm sure they have some life experience.

I love the hint in the article about that process. It's colorful and shows that it's not just about cultures, but also about individuals:

> "The buyer that does all the storage products, he's the only guy I let work out of home," Pikarski says. "He's Italian."

It bothers me as much the Paypal Mafia and YC Mafia businesses hiring practices. New/small business hire their friends, people they know and trust.

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