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I have an inverse story from yours.

I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american.

We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics.

I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year.

What I saw was not "good" vs "evil" or, "propaganda" vs "truth".

What I saw was exactly the same shit, I spoke to natives in both places, I travelled around.

Russia has it's side of the story and America has theirs, America is good at spreading it's propaganda outside of it's borders and fostering the image of "the beacon of light and purity of the world" but those who actually take a sceptical or inquisitive eye to America see an insidious underbelly which is only parabled by that in Russia.

Russia is guilty of being no more evil than the US government, if anything they're more honest with their intentions.

The differing factor is that we bought the kool-aid.

Ah "America does it" strawman, there must be a handbook on internet trolling or something made back in the old country now. Every single time, every single time, same crap gets regurgitated.

"Why are we invading yet another country? Oh because America did it too!"

"Why are our rights being eroded? Oh because America does it!"

and so on...

I been back to Russia and crisscrossed the US over the last decade, I would pick the US for all its problems over Russia any day as a place to live. Anyways I am quite happy here in Europe for now.

Well, it's fine if you call out Russia on principle, as long as that principle applies to the US as well.

But you seem to suggest that the US is a nicer place to live, so it's fine that they've waged aggressive wars all over the globe for more than half a century?

Seem to suggest? SEEM TO SUGGEST! fuuuuu....

Look my grandparents died a few years ago in a small tiny village by the Volga, once you travel outside of Moscow and Leningrad(StPetersburg nowadays) you may as well be time travelling into the past. The place had no paved roads leading to it had to travel couple of says on grotty trains to get there. The farming being done is subsistence with remnants of old Soviet coop in the village, alcoholism is rampant so is depression. It is understandable how one who might never has left Moscow doesn't realise how truly and incredibly poor the rest of the country is

Now rural US or UK may as well be on a different planet when compared to that.

This is all from personal experience, what has happened and is happening in Russia is beyond tragic.

Now go ahead and come up with another "But but the US"

US and Europe have all sorts of issues and are not perfect and no one claims they are, but they are damned better places for my kids to grow up in.

My reply was ambiguous. The point was that you seem to be suggesting the US is always right because it's a nicer place to live, or that Russia is wrong because it is not such a nice place to live.

I lived in the West for a long time and returned with my children to eastern Europe. Sure it's poorer and less developed and plagued with problems. There are many frustrating things, but to categorically suggest it is impossible to live there (or Russia I guess) would be an insult to everyone who does.

You've found your happiness in Europe and that's great.

The US is, without question, a nicer place to live than Russia. If you think otherwise, you've either never been to the US or you haven't seen the level of poverty that is widespread outside Russia's major cities. There are small pockets of prosperity in Russia, outside of those, nobody acclimated to western standards of living would consider them equatable.

I didn't say otherwise. In general, for the average Joe (or Dmitri), the US is a nicer place to live. That doesn't excuse the behavior of it's government or serve as an argument why Russia is wrong and the US is right.

Can a 3rd party call Russia out on something if USA do it too, or should we all shut up?

Because right now the discussion looks like this:

  - Help! This thieve has stolen my bag!
  - Shut up, others do it all the time.

I am in no way suggesting people should not express their opinions.

I'd like to know whether those opinions are formed as a result of propaganda. In this case, whether any anti-russian opinions are out of principle (e.g. pacifist principles) or on the basis of consumed propaganda.

May I add yet another story to this thread?

I was a member of municipal polling board during last Putin's election. Honestly I did my best to prevent fraud, and yet the voting protocol (a paper where all ballots are summed up, it goes to an higher-level board) was rewritten right under my nose (+25% to a leading candidate, guess which one), with police covering it up. I tried to warn a friendly member of higher-level board, just to learn that all independent members of the board were escorted out of building by our SWAT analogue.

Voting and vote counting were all recorded on much-hyped state-wise CCTV system, so I thought "right, I'll go to a public prosecutor, they will retrieve the record and the fraud would be obvious". Guess what — there were no interest at all, my complaint was routed into the same higher-level board.

It wasn't an isolated event. In fact, the huge part of polling boards in Saint-Petersburg had their protocols rewritten. It was widely publicized in a local independent press, but all court cases were ultimately lost and no one were held accountable. Similar stories took place in other Russian cities.

This was a huge, centrally orchestrated fraud, with those in power getting away with it (as always). Voting is an institute of critical importance to any liberal democracy out there, and it is completely and systematically destroyed by Putin and his team. I can't see how on Earth the country where it's normal can be even compared to US; it's like comparing North Korea and US with a straight face.

And yes, given that it's HN, let me also mention that all cellular and Internet operators in Russia are legally and openly obliged to pay for wiretapping equipment and install it with no regulatory oversight on how it's used. It's so amusing when people somehow combine any degree of support for Snowden AND for Russian government.

This is very suspect and very hard to believe. I've been on polling boards in a much (much) smaller country, and it would be logistically impossible to carry out fraud on that scale (25%) without it being widely documented.

The suggestion that there are enough police (including SWAT none the less) to watch over tens of thousands of polling stations and enforce this is even stranger. And this is from a miniscule country compared to Russia (size mentioned because of the logistics challenge of such an endeavour). There were such stories in my country as well, previously, but were generally propaganda from the opposition at the time.

>This is very suspect and very hard to believe

Here is my blog post on that elections [1]. It's in Russian, so please use Google Translate to make sense of it.

>without it being widely documented

It is widely documented. Now what? There is no such thing as "class action lawsuit" in Russia. The only two entities that can file a lawsuit are candidates (because they are directly harmed by fraud) or public prosecutors. The former are filtered [2], and the latter one don't care. So what exactly can be done with the documented fraud?

>The suggestion that there are enough police to watch over tens of thousands of polling stations

All polling station have at least one policeman during voting day in Russia (at least in big cities). There are about 700 000 policemen in Russia, so there are more than enough to handle this.

>logistics challenge of such an endeavour

What do you consider a logistic challenge? There are a lot of police stations in Russia, it's not like they're all concentrated in a few places. If you mean the logistic challenge of the fraud itself, it's also pretty straightforward: the biggest part of county's funding comes from Moscow, and it depends on election results. Incentives for local authorities are here, combine them with deteriorated social institutes and all branches of authority fused together and you get widespread fraud without much coordination.

Heck, just look up Chechnya's voting results, with 99.59% turnout and 99.89% of votes for Putin [3]. It's just plain impossible in any electoral situation. Nothing is done about it, guess why.

[1]: http://si14.livejournal.com/23943.html

[2]: you need to get an absurd amount of signatures to become a presidential candidate, and even if you manage to collect them, they can be easily dismissed by some anonymous expert as "forged" ones

[3]: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/world/europe/fraudulent-vo...

  I've been on polling boards in a much (much) smaller country

A different country. Different culture. Different people. Cannot extrapolate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_vo...

Look, even this article is titled "controversy". I personally have a videofile from my own polling station, where you can hear loud and clear true results of the voting, and then look up "official" results with 20%+ difference. It's not even a controversy here, it's a wide scale fraud in broad daylight, and not even one official was persecuted for this.

I understand an attraction of reiterating how corrupt America is, but it's not even close here.

We're different. Part of American foreign policy is that "truth is the best propaganda" not the only propaganda, mind you, but the best.

The West also does have a policy of expanding liberal democracies and integrating them into a world trade frame work. Cases where we don't follow this policy is in areas where we're afraid of a counter weight emerging.

For example, the Middle Eastern policy is one where we foster instability to keep the Arab / Muslim world from unifying. Yes of course the war in Iraq is a travesty, but in America and the West in general we know when we get into tragic wars. To the point where even Jeb Bush has admitted that the war was a mistake.

The Russian mindset is different. It's more... brutal? I'm struggling for the right word. But if you look at Russian war doctrine during the cold war and (especially) World War 2, you see this apparatus that is 100% ok with using logic that ends with millions of suffering countrymen. Where propaganda and killing political opponents is acceptable. Where sending a man into space even though your scientists tell you he won't make it back alive.

The West doesn't stand for this. We have our (sometimes blatant) propaganda like the rest of them, and we make mistakes, but our jails cells look nothing like those in most of the rest of the world and our press isn't nearly as controlled.

> The Russian mindset is different. It's more... brutal? I'm struggling for the right word.

Severe is the word I use. If I were permitted to generalize the Russian people, I would generalize them as severe. Extremely warm and loyal people, but quick to swing to the opposite end of the spectrum when disturbed.

I'm married to a Russian and spend lots of time with Russians. My wife tells a joke about a westerner hanging out with some Russian friends. The Russians spend the night joking around telling him shit about Russians, being heavy drinkers, quick to violence, as if it were a competition to see which culture drank more. The westerner disagrees and says no, you are a great and warm people. And they continue to try to convince him with their stories, saying "we're all friends here". At the end of the night he finally agrees, "OK, you're right, maybe you guys are heavy drinkers". So they beat him up.

That is a much better word. Thank you.

A handful of conversations and a couple months of travel will not give a Westerner an understanding of Russia. The vast majority USSR emigrants under a certain age (that is, people truly familiar with both systems) would disagree with you in the strongest possible terms. I'm one of them. There is no moral equivalence.

I agree, but I think you mean "above a certain age".

I'll take you word that living in Russia today is better than what your parents went through. I've only watched Russia from afar. As a kid, I heard about the shortages of TP, and in some cases food, but I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty.

My views don't matter. I was young. As I stated, I'll take your word it's better now. I have one question about modern Russia.

The question is "How does anything in business get done with all the corruption, bribes, killings, and just illegial behavior?"

I know Russia is not the only country with huge levels of seemingly stifling corruption, and your conversion to capitalism is very early. And yes, even the U.S. has corruption, but here, you can only get away with so much, for so long. As much as I despise our system sometimes; I am proud of our checks and balances.

In your opinion, how many decades will it take in order to stifle the corruption. From my perspective, I just couldn't imagine doing business in that country. I don't even trust .ru domains? Am I being overly paranoid?

  I don't remember you guys having a homeless problem? 
  Or, huge masses of people in extreme poverty.

Both existed. Homeless people were escorted outside of big cities (often jailed, but not always), so foreign journalists would not see them on the streets of the places they were allowed to visit. I estimate the level of homelessness was less than that of the USA, however. The level of poverty, in my estimation, was much higher, and it affected the most vulnerable members of the society, primarily the elderly.

> inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart

You must have never lived in Russia post Soviet Union nor experienced how much worse it is to be spouting this crap. No one believes Putin is a genius - but in fact the country was so badly ruined under Yeltsin and Oligarchical capitalism-free-for-all that Putin appeared to people as the best possible option of these.

I was there till the middle of 90s i see the worst of the post-collapse, yes things got worse but Putin is not some genius savior who rode in on a white horse to save Russia from evil capitalism as is the prevailing narrative nowadays. Rising oil prices and modernization of the oil industry by a certain oligarch whose company was then taken from him by Putin is where most of the money came from, money then used by Putin to grab more power.

What followed the USSR was a wild west free for all bringing out the worst of capitalism, with even more corruption and organised crime taking over daily lives of just about everyone. It is tragic and sad that Russia could not transition to a modern economy like some Eastern European countries done.

Putin loves to push the story that without him Russia will go back to the bad old days of "democracy and capitalism" of the 90s, and that his way is the only way forward. The whole thing is awful similar to what was argued in Germany in 30s btw.

> Putin loves to push the story that without him Russia will go back to the bad old days of "democracy and capitalism" of the 90s, and that his way is the only way forward. The whole thing is awful similar to what was argued in Germany in 30s btw.

I'm definitely not arguing in support of Putin here - what I'm saying is two things:

a) the popular support of Putin is understandable in the face of recent history.

b) Quality of life in Russia today is well below what it was in the 1980's (ask any of the 99%).

Other than that it might as well be one type of state sponsored propaganda replaced by another.

> No one believes Putin is a genius Oh, man, I wish this was true. Just like Dmitri back in Russia I tried to prevent elections fraud, and even though I myself got forcibly removed from the site, and my friends recorded fraud, some my other friends did not care. But that's not the worst: some still think Putin is a genius after knowing that!

Now I'm in US. Fuck them.

While all you are saying is true, I also think the very same kind of propaganda, but actually much more efficient, is happening in Europe and the US. People go absolutely insane if you start questioning democracy, social programs or anything that a state does.

When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in general) because of the lack of regulations or government interference, they go in denial. People in Europe and even in the US are so much more brainwashed into believing they need a state that it's painful to even start conversations with them. The most notable case just happened in Finland, where reportedly the police asked citizens to rat on pizza places who sell pizza for less than 6.5 EUR because the government believes a place selling pizzas for less cannot be profitable. In my book, that's almost what a communist state with price controls looks like.

I'd like my kids to grow up in Russia. I like it that, at least when it comes to personal income, the tax rate is 13% (although fundamentally, I believe there should be no taxation). I like it that I have more freedom here than in Europe or the US. The only thing I don't like is the government of any kind telling me or my family what products or services I can use and for how much. Unfortunately that happens in many other countries too and especially so in Europe or the US.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia. It's the norm to have to pay off multiple officials when trying to get something built/renovated.

Russia doesn't give a fuck about its own people, to the Russian government lives are expendable if needed [1]. The alcoholism and suicide rate in Russia is monstrous [2], and is probably caused by the lack of opportunity.

> In my book, that's almost what a communist state with price controls looks like.

No. A communist state looks like the murder of millions for the sake of "security"[3].

> I'd like my kids to grow up in Russia. I like it that, at least when it comes to personal income, the tax rate is 13%...

Actually it's even better than you think. 13% of $0 is still $0.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

> Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia

I'm not concerned with corruption. It's a different side of coin. What happens in the US or in Europe is that if you need stuff done or if you need to win in court, you hire expensive lobbyists or lawyers. Either way, you spend money. It is practically the same, but legalized, so that you can say "oh, but this is civil". No it's not. It's still a government monopoly on doing stuff. Government should have no business telling people how to run a business or live their lives.

> What happens in the US or in Europe is that if you need stuff done or if you need to win in court, you hire expensive lobbyists or lawyers.

Lobbyists and Lawyers are private individuals, corrupt officials are government agents. I thought you were against "big government"?

I am. Lobbyists and lawyers only exist because there is a government monopoly on law.

Lobbyists yes, but not lawyers.

Lawyers in their current incarnation wouldn't exists and wouldn't be able to charge those high prices unless they weren't state licenced (you can't be a lawyer without state permission, basically) and unless they had to deal with monopoly on law, which is government.

>> When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in general) because of the lack of regulations or government interference, they go in denial.

Cool. I'm from a small 3rd world country. Just as in Russia the police officers sometimes rape detainees with bottles of champagne, there is literally no justice, but lots other funny things.

But our prices are lower than those in Russia. And it's OK if you are not paying taxes here. So what? Does it mean the rest of the world must be envy?

I think countries have problems because of governments, not because their governments aren't strong enough. Paying more to police officers doesn't make them behave any more civil. An example of that is the US where police abuse is widespread and incarceration rate is highest in the world. Statistically, in terms of police interaction, I'd be much safer in your country than in the US.

The real problem is absence of the market mechanism in law enforcement. A police officer, even though I basically am paying his salary, isn't working for me. He's working for the state. I can't hire another protection service and stop paying to the police. I can't complain. Hell, I can't even change laws that I don't like (except through a very long political process which is unlikely to give me any results in any meaningful timeframe).

What you should be thinking is, not how to make a government better, but how to make it less dangerous and influential.

I agree with you on this one, but I have hard time believing that between U.S. and Russian governments the former is more dangerous to its citizens than the latter.

Well, think twice. Just by incarceration rate alone you can tell that the US govt is more dangerous to its own citizens. I'm also much more likely to be shot by a cop in the US than in Russia. Russia also doesn't execute people (there's a moratorium on capital punishment). What else do you need to know?

Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take, all sounding wonderful but crushingly impossible in implementation a la USSR)?

(Obviously I'm biased, but I am trying to make an earnest question. Russian communism sounded great too, even as you note: your parents still fall for the propaganda. Wish I could ask in a more neutral tone, but it's an inherently divisive subject.)

It was never communism back in USSR, it was authoritarianism where all power flowed to the Kremlin marching under the Socialist banner, 30 years its the same shit but to the tune of Nationalism. The economy still remains resource extraction bound (more so now), corruption goes all the way to the top (see Sochi).

One quote from my mother sums it up when we moved here in middle of 90s when she learned that in Europe this thing called welfare exists "So we were building Socialism for 70 years, and they had it here all along"

BTW they didnt fall for propaganda back then, it was mocked if anything, but the modern take on it by the Russian state controlled media is actually incredible to behold in how it works, hell just look at some of the replies above that my post attracted to see it in action.

Working electricity, sewers, courts, police, and road netowork all require "a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take" on the same level that free healthcare and university education do.

I was a kid in 80s in communist Poland. It was shitty place, with a lot of absurd propaganda nobody (including the people making a living spewing it, or beating up the protesters) believed. Free education and healthcare had nothing to do with it.

Main differences between communism and modern social democracies:

- independent organisations were banned or discriminated, now they are encouraged

- people were paid to spy on each other with the REAL money (you couldn't buy a car in a month with any amount of money, but if you told the right person that your neighbor listens to radio free europa and prints leaflets - you could get one no problem) - think this one through - no matter how good brain surgeon or rocket scientist or nobel prize writer you are - you won't get a car unless you wait for 10 or 20 years. Spying on your neighbors (or knowing the right people and doing them favours) can solve this in a week. Consider the incentives this sets up throught the whole society.

- there was just one employer (the state)

- social trust was nonexistent - you could only trust your family

- you had to apply for a permission to leave the country, and often when they gave you that permission you had to sign with secret service that you are a spy - so they can later blackmail you with it

I see no reason to think policies like free education till M.A. are in any way connected to these problems, since Poland had free education and healthcare both now and during communism, yet we don't do the bad things I listed anymore.

For the record - I didn't downvoted you and I don't understand why somebody woulld do that for asking a question.

BTW: free university education seems like much better than paid, because as a kid you work harder in school for better grades to go to better university. As a kid of poor parents in system with paid universities you just can't work hard enough to go to Harward (well there are stipends I guess, so they do see this problem).

As a parent it works too - in paid system you spend more time at work to afford better education for your kids. In free system - you teach your kids more so they get better grades and go to a better university. IMHO it's obvious which system sets up the incentives better.

A given level of technology allows a county with given resources (e.g. petroleum, good engineers, conquered peoples being exploited far away, etc.) to have some total amount of wealth. The ruling class will give the bottom 99% some part of the wealth (not 99%, but hopefully 50%) to keep them subdued.

The closer technology is to Star Trek's replicators, the more realistic free housing, food, utilities are. In such a society, people are by default artists, not farmers or workers. The people who becomes doctors and teachers and do not get compensated by their patients or students, need to be compensated by the government which needs to have something people want.

In the USSR, people spent most of their money, time and energy just hustling for the basic necessities.

Note: I was born in Leningrad, but know of life there only from my parents.

I laughed when I read this, but there is indeed a difference. Here, a meaningful portion of your confiscated earnings is distributed to your fellow citizens. Moreover, the means of confiscation is predictable, as is the degree. In Russia, you'll get fleeced just the same. However, your money will primarily line the pockets of those doing the taking.