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Comment by robotnoises | Hacker News Reader

Larry Wall's discussion on the logo, Camelia (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/mu/master/misc/camel...):

Discussion Highlights =====================

From: Larry Wall Date: March 24, 2009 10:25 Subject: Re: Logo considerations

[...] I think there's a tendency to go way too abstract in most of these proposals. I want something with gut appeal on the order of Tux. In particular I want a logo for Perl 6 that is:

    Fun
    Cool
    Cute
    Named
    Lively
    Punable
    Personal
    Concrete
    Symmetric
    Asymmetric
    Attractive
    Relational
    Metamorphic
    Decolorizable
    Shrinkable to textual icon
    Shrinkable to graphical icon

In addition, you can extend just about anything by attaching "P6" wings to it. I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community. You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :)

Hence, Camelia.

Larry

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Happy to see someone who discourage misogyny in his wishes for a new logo :-)

I remember volunteering to create some logo ideas for Perl 6 - maybe a decade ago? I did research and presented ideas. I was at a step even before thumbnail sketches - just wanted to get some feedback from the Perl community - am I on the right track? Any other ideas to look at? [0]

Larry kinda went, "NO IT"S THIS." and there was Camelia.

Honestly, Camelia is just slightly worse than the redesign of The Life Aquatic Flag/Logo. Which itself was funny, as this was from a comedy [1].

[0] http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/01/msg9...

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Life+Aquatic+with+Steve+...

Ah, I remember now - Larry just posted a PDF of Camelia.[0]

I was under the impression that Larry was banned from being in involved in the implementation of Perl 6. ;)

I kinda saw that logo and gave up the idea of helping. It was just so horrible as to defy logic.

Still love Perl and I think a butterfly is a great idea - and even this is a good as a start, but it's not a strong enough logo for people to have careers depend upon. Like me. It doesn't even tick all the checkboxes that Larry had. If you made this logo in an intro design class in art school, you'd be ridiculed.

[0] http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/03/msg9...

I don't get it. How does disliking a butterfly logo equate to hating women?

It doesn't. The logo is more childish than it is feminine anyways.

Discouraging misogyny doesn't mean feminine.

But in this context (a rather garish butterfly logo), what does it mean?

Not overtly masculine? I can imagine the temptation was there for some to promote an overly aggressive logo.

The idea that masculinity is akin to misogyny is as dangerous and harmful as misogyny itself. As is the idea that aggression is a purely masculine trait, or that any of the traits Larry listed are exclusively feminine.

Larry didn't say it should be feminine, nor did he imply it. He also didn't say masculinity is misogyny. At most he called for something androgynous. I think to interpret his statements otherwise is projecting.

> As is the idea that aggression is a purely masculine trait

I didn't say it was a purely masculine trait, but to ignore the clear association between masculinity and aggression in many cultures is to ignore reality. There are many social, economic and (possibly) evolutionary reasons why men are often more aggressive than women. Couple this with the relative involvement of women in CS and programming positions, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that aggression in our industry can be seen as overly masculine.

He literally says his vision for the logo is to discourage misogyny in the parent post:

> I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community.

All I want to know is what does the one have to do with the other? What does a butterfly logo have to do with the concept of sexism towards women? That's it. That's my question. I have no idea how to state it more simply.

Someone suggested that "discouraging misogyny" does not necessarily mean femininity, so I asked what "discouraging misogyny" does mean in this context, and you replied "not overtly masculine".

That response does not simply allude to the idea that masculinity is misogyny, it is literally saying that masculinity is misogyny. Hence my reply that the very idea is itself sexist and dangerous. It was my response to your saying masculinity is misogyny, and your interpretation of Larry's original statement about the logo to mean as such. That is not projecting, that is simple reading comprehension.

> All I want to know is what does the one have to do with the other? What does a butterfly logo have to do with the concept of sexism towards women? That's it. That's my question. I have no idea how to state it more simply.

By being gender neutral and inviting in an industry with is definitively male dominated, and arguably male-centric.

> It was my response to your saying masculinity is misogyny

I did not say masculinity is misogyny, please don't extend your argument to my statements providing and alternate interpretation. My interpretation is this: You can fight misogyny by being open and inviting to all sexes. Being overtly masculine can hamper that. Let's not be overtly masculine.

To be clear, I think the root difference in our points of view is that you seem to have attributed a very specific meaning to one particular statement of his. I think there is not enough context to make a definitive assertion as to his meaning, so out of the possible interpretations I chose one that is more positive.

Since Peaches wears a Camelia suit on stage[0], I think this logo made his job.

[0] https://twitter.com/CreativeCopper1/status/65167580812206080...

Yup, shrinkable to graphical icon is an exclusively masculine trick, that's for sure.

That's pretty much the intention. I have heard Larry Wall say that Camelia was created to appeal to 7 year old girls. I didn't hear him go into any complicated discussions regarding masculinity/femininity or any of that jazz.

> You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :)

I might perceive this differently because of my cultural background, but isn't it a bit misandric to claim masculinity as unsensitive?

Tom Cooks

I'm having a hard time thinking of a logo that is both

* Something a programming language with wide use would ever adopt, past, present, or future

* ..and is misogynistic in any way

What the hell is that sentence directed at?

Maybe he meant something that Peaches could make a suit of on stage: https://twitter.com/CreativeCopper1/status/65167580812206080...

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