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Comment by qyv | Hacker News Reader

Of course. And don't get me wrong, the iPad is far from worthless and Apple is far from Trivial in the space. The point is that Apple is no longer the leader/innovator in the space. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think that a lot of iOS devices get sold on intangibles rather than concrete benefits or capabilities. Apple has created tremendous value in these intangibles by being so awesome/innovative/ahead for the last 8 years, that has created a tremendous amount of loyalty in iOS users and sells a LOT of iOS devices every single generation despite the substantial (to most people) costs. People who depend on tech to make their living (often) require more than intangible benefits, and the competition has now caught/surpassed them as far as tech goes, and usually for a lower price.

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I don't see where the competition is coming from. Samsung? Google? Xiaomi?

Outside of Microsoft (disclosure: MS employee), I don't see much competition for Apple in the innovative premium tablet space. They still execute well in the phone space, watch seems to be shaping up fine, they are still the only PC maker that is known for producing PCs that can last. The costs don't seem too off from the competition, unless we are talking about Xiaomi or Lenovo, but then the tradeoffs are obvious (no longer in the premium space).

I do see Apple slowing down a bit in innovation. I mean, if iPad Pro was released last year (stylus, yeh!), I might have bought it, but the Surface 3 came out instead, which is quite decent (I won't go SP3 because of the fan). But Apple is still executing well, they aren't making many mistakes. They have built up a loyal fanbase and haven't done anything to betray them yet.

People who depend on tech are usually about the shiny more than normal consumers, who just want to get what they need done. The rabid irrational Apple fanboy isn't grandma, no, it is the young kid working in tech.

> People who depend on tech are usually about the shiny more than normal consumers, who just want to get what they need done. The rabid irrational Apple fanboy isn't grandma, no, it is the young kid working in tech.

This may perhaps reflect the different professional subcultures we're around, but IME "people who depend on tech" are _less_ prone to this (not necessarily the rabid fanboying but the equivalent effect). I think you're underestimating the effect that an unwillingness to do (relatively) in-depth research has on the purchasing decisions of "normal consumers". I.e., "wanting what they need to get done" is a wonderful wish, but it's somewhat meaningless when decoupled from knowing the differences/capabilities of each device. I don't think it's controversial to say that normal consumers put much much more faith in the wisdom of the crowds, and (if they can afford it), Apple products are the beginning and end of their search. The fact that "Android" or even "high-end Android" isn't a cohesive brand to the casual observer means that iPhones seem like a plurality of their cursory data set, even when it's not the majority (which, at least in the US, is pretty often).

Even in 2015, I have people asking me in slightly shocked tones why I don't use an iPhone, and their certainty is always based entirely on social proof (they generally have no knowledge about whatever is I happen to be using).

I have people asking me in slightly shocked tones why I don't use an iPhone, and their certainty is always based entirely on social proof

I cannot count the amount of times I have experienced this phenomena. A couple of years ago, when I first got an android phone, I remember someone say "Ha, you don't have an iPhone, your poor!"... the content of the comment didn't really disturb me, what did was the reasoning which lead the person to generate such a perspective.

> Outside of Microsoft (disclosure: MS employee), I don't see much competition for Apple in the innovative premium tablet space.

Care to break down Apple vs. Microsoft's revenues in tablets? I can't imagine it's within two orders of magnitude, at which point I'd hardly say that Microsoft counts as competition. But maybe I'm wrong about the numbers.

(Granted, you said "pro tablets". I doubt we can get numbers on that, but I think the relevant distinction is "tablets used for work" rather than "tablets with XYZ specs", and in that space too I suspect without data that Apple is far and beyond the leader in terms of revenue.)

I'm really just an outside observer like everyone else :). But the Surface Pro 3 and even the Surface 3 (S3) aren't really competing with the iPad, they really have different use cases (I do work on my S3, but I'm typing this post in bed on my iPad Air!). So Apple definitely leads in the tablet market by far, but I think we could be more competitive in the prosumer tablet space that they are entering with the iPad pro. More to the point: Apple is basically validating this market, which can only be good for us as long as we can provide a decent alternative (which I think we do). What is clear is that android tablets are in a bit of trouble at all ends...they really need to do some rethinking.

I'm stoked for the fanless SP4. I wonder if there will be Ubuntu drivers for the pen.

From the top...

    > iPad is far from worthless and Apple is far from
    > Trivial in the space

Far from trivial doesn't really capture a device that combines being the most expensive with a 75% market share in the US[0] and where US tablet ownership among internet users is 54%[1].

    > The point is that Apple is no longer the leader/innovator in
    > the space

Oooh, is there (yet another) new iPhone killer out again this month?

    > People who depend on tech to make their living (often) require
    > more than intangible benefits, and the competition has now
    > caught/surpassed them as far as tech goes

Those silver rectanges with the pretty apple logo on them have absolutely dominated every single developer event I've been at in recent memory.

[0] https://chitika.com/insights/2014/q4-tablet-update [1] https://www.globalwebindex.net/blog/tablet-ownership-highest...

Note: I'm not taking a position on the actual capability of iPads in the professional space, but this comment is a masterstroke in setting up strawmen and bravely knocking them down.

I'm not the parent commenter, but from the top...

> Far from trivial doesn't really capture a device that combines being the most expensive with a 75% market share in the US[0] and where US tablet ownership among internet users is 54%[1].

As hinted at by the first part of the sentence you're responding to, this thread is talking about the quality of iOS devices for professional work, not their popularity.

> Oooh, is there (yet another) new iPhone killer out again this month?

The snark here handily hides the lack of substance: once again, the reason there's no iPhone-killer (and I don't anticipate there being one for some time) is a different question from whether there's an alternative better-suited to professional work.

"The point is that Apple is no longer the leader/innovator in the space"

But Apple never created new product categories successfully in the past. People bought Macs in lieu of PC's; iPods in lieu of Discmans/minidisc/other MP3 players; iPhones in lieu of flip phones, candy bars, or blackberries.

They tried to create a new product category with the iPad and get people who don't own a computer to buy one (or buy one in addition to their normal computer purchases). It's been mildly successful so far, but sales have been falling. Apple should probably stick with replacing existing product categories with a well-designed, premium alternative.

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