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Comment by andrelaszlo | Hacker News Reader

OT: Non-native English speaker here. The form "what even is X" sounds completely bizarre to me. Can anybody explain the grammar or history of this?

I noticed that the title was edited on the HN post (original title: "What even is a kubelet?"), but not the original article. This seems to go against the "please use the original title" guideline? Are people annoyed by this phrase?

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It's not proper English.

The grammar is purposefully incorrect as a way of emphasising that you have "no idea what it is".

I'm not sure how it's supposed to emphasize it, but I have noticed that many people use incorrect grammar as a funny way to emphasize their point.

It works up until the incorrect grammar becomes the correct grammar, because language evolution.

For any non-English speakers, there's a subtle joke here: really you should say "because of <noun>" or "because <noun verb>" (or any grammatically valid clause), so in this case it ought to be "because of language evolution" or "because language evolves".

The "because <noun>" construct is a fairly recent thing, I think. The Atlantic "goes long" on it here: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/11/englis...

Yes I was kind of wondering if this is a new thing, like because[0,1,2] or if it's canonical English. I was looking for an analysis like [0] on this, but I couldn't find any.

0: http://allthingslinguistic.com/post/72252671648/why-the-new-...

1: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/because-a...

2: https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/because-has-becom...

It adds an air of exasperation to the questions, like you have heard people talking about X a lot but no one has let you in on the meaning. A similar phrase might be "what the hell is X".

Disclaimer: I've only lived in California, so I don't know how wide spread it's use is.

Thank you. I found the following applicable definitions of the word "even" in the dictionary[0]:

    Used as an intensive to indicate something that is
    unexpected: declined even to consider the idea.

    17. (intensifier; used to suggest that the content of a
    statement is unexpected or paradoxical): even an idiot
    can do that.

    You use even to show that what you are saying is
    surprising. You put even in front of the surprising
    part of your statement.

    Even Anthony enjoyed it.

    She liked him even when she was arguing with him.

    I shall give the details to no one, not even to you.

Maybe my confusion stems from the fact that "even" is translated into the phrases "även" (also), "till och med", "inte ens" (not even), and others in Swedish. I can't come up with any good translation for "What even is X?", without rephrasing it to something like "What is x, even?".

Is this considered "good" English? Is it a strong social demarcator, ie you sound like a teenager/professor/girl/snob/... if you use it? Like I said, I became curious because I noticed the phrase before and now I noticed that it was edited.

0: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/even

In the Scandinavian languages, I think the closest we get to "what even is X?" is intonation combined with interjecting nå/nu for ekstra emphasis.

E.g in Norwegian "Hva er nå X?" (possibly tacking on a "for noe" at the end) instead of just "hva er X?" conveys extra emphasis quite well. Would "vad er nu X?" do the same in Swedish, or does that only work in Norwegian?

The entire phenomenon is basically intentionally interjecting or removing words to create a jarring effect that creates extra emphasis, so looking for a translation boils down to figuring out words that add emphasis if you add or remove them rather than looking for an exact translation of the individual words.

It seems to very much be a strong social demarcator that still seems to be tied quite strongly to online communities with a relatively young demographics (e.g. various sub-reddits are full of these)

Seems to be similar to Swedish "Vad är nu X", but it sounds thoughtful rather than perplexed. To me at least.

As other people have said above, "What even is X?" is a sort of odd phrasing being used for emphasis, similarly to other odd dubiously-grammatical constructions that the Internet likes.

A more typical usage of "even" in a similar role would be the sentence "What are you even doing?" which is just an intensified version of "What are you doing?". Even this reads to me as colloquial, but it doesn't sound especially marked and I can imagine hearing it on the street. "What even is X?" seems like a further evolution of it.

I'd say in the UK a phrase like "What even is steak?" would be more expected of a teenager than anyone else; perhaps because they tend to over exaggerate more in conversation. However a phrase like "Even Anthony liked it." is perfectly common and wouldn't tend towards being used more by any particular segment of the population - this is an expression about the person mentioned, surprise that they liked it more than it is about the speaker using the phrase as emphasis.

A: "Why even would you do that?" [as opposed to "Why would you even do that?" B: "Because reasons"

"Even Anthony liked it" could well be phrased "Anthony also liked it" but you lose something of the surprise - in the first phrase there is an expectation that Anthony wouldn't normally like that sort of thing.

I can't even

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