topdancing

> still haven't posted a single technical argument

Have you even tried reading the original article that this thread is literally linked to at the very top?

> I understand "bare-metal" to mean without an operating system.

In your mind, how does a computer system function without an operating system?

I use dino.im and kaidan.im also exists (though they implemented a newer version of the spec which isn't backwards compatible: https://invent.kde.org/network/kaidan/-/issues/254 ).

> And lets not forget I'm basing my views on technical arguments

You're not, you just simply have a strong opinion about something you haven't even tried (in the last decade) and thus basically know nothing about it. It's a view based on ignorance.

I saw that, and it's simply a ridiculous and narrow minded viewpoint (even more so giving you're judging on purely historical data).

I myself have rediscovered XMPP in the past two years (whilst using other tools like Matrix for other roles). The experience has revolutionized the way I view chats apps and even I host my own server on my own bare metal.

The thing quite simply flies and is rock solid. I've also seen multihour WhatsApp and Signal outages go by whereas my friends and I have kept chatting on my reliable server. Never had an issue with STARTTLS.

XMPP has silently evolved with the times and is far better than ever and should simply be the go to if you want to have control over your own comms.

Pidgin is quite simply a terrible XMPP client with none of the features of modern XMPP. I haven't had any issues with OMEMO with my contacts on Gajim.

The only other reference I can find to a Haskell XMPP server is your other comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27297137

Suffice to say; go and download a modern client like conversations.im and install ejabberd.im on a machine somewhere (or just use a throwaway account on a public server). The ecosystem has significantly improved since you last tried it... 15-20 years ago?

It doesn't, OTR was deprecated by OMEMO a while back.

https://snikket.org/blog/snikket-ios-public-release/ - needs a prosody module for reliability though.

dino.im is the new up and coming desktop client. I have a few friends that are using Gajim on Windows.

kaidan.im is also a new KDE client.

Yes, in addition to my private XMPP server, I have been running a Matrix server for one of my clients for about the same amount of time.

Element desktop is... slow and terrible in comparison with all of its confusing options, and regularly kicks just a single person off the server for no apparent reason when their session becomes corrupted. I really want to use fractal but it doesn't do E2EE.

Synapse was a horrible resource hog, but conduit actually seems pretty good. Still prefer ejabberd.

> Seriously, XMPP is still worse than AIM for actual day-to-day use

Have you actually tried the modern clients like Conversations/Dino? I've been running a private XMPP server for friends for the past couple of years and the only way to describe it is rock-solid.

If there's anything that's overhyped these days, it's Matrix.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27557113 was so brilliant at capturing my own thoughts/concerns on it.

Most of the problems described here also apply to Matrix.

Also came up on Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/PrivacyGuides/comments/qkhqf7/xmpp_admi...

If you've ever used Docker or deployed an nginx server - then you can very easily deploy a chat server. Pretty much the same thing but over a different protocol.

Server getting compromised - that's largely unimportant with end-to-end encryption through OMEMO. Distros also apply security patches (just keep things up to date).

You do not require 50 engineers to run a chat server for <200 of your friends. In my experience, once you have the software configured and running - it pretty much runs itself.

Here's a guide on how to install everything needed onto a raspberry pi: https://samhobbs.co.uk/2016/09/installing-prosody-instant-me...

As with anything else, it's a fun learning experience and something new to try.

For the past two years; I've been using Conversations (Android), Dino (Linux), and friends of mine have been using Gajim (Windows), Monal/Siskin (iOS).

All of these work fine with OMEMO (the iOS ones gained better OMEMO and push support in the past few months) and message history retrieval between clients. Gajim doesn't do inline images, but the rest do.

I occasionally use profanity as a console client and that recently had message archive support land in Git.

So, yeah, no idea what you mean by developers giving up - if anything, the ecosystem has greatly improved (minus group OMEMO on iOS).

Oh, and Dino got support for doing encrypted calls to Conversations a few months ago: https://fosstodon.org/@dino/106228549009869402

Not at all, I have a bunch of friends on my private server and getting someone an XMPP client and account takes less than a minute. No phone number or email required.

Sure, everyone out there isn't going to be on my server - but for the close friends I care about - it's been flawless.

You can very easily build your own WhatsApp server today by simply deploying https://www.ejabberd.im/ on a box and using https://conversations.im/ on an Android phone.

If you're absolutely sure that there's no copyright attached - go back to the revert changesets and comment saying so.

There's nothing wrong with it - it's just not giving credit back properly that I have an issue with.

Take this for example, which got some front page news time in the UK:

- https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/dec/27/walk-th...

- https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/jun/13/how-the-slow-...

- https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54562137

Pretty much the entire thing is taken from OSM and there isn't a single mention of that on any of those pages.

(and as I understand it, Slow Ways haven't contributed back their changes to OSM which is required by the OSM license).

You cannot just copy and paste things from a public domain data source without first checking the copyright terms and making sure that they're compatible with the OSM license (if they are, you can comment on the revert changeset saying so):

- https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Potential_Datasources

In my experience, the satellite imagery available in the OSM editor to trace buildings and paths (which the other commenter was talking about) - and when I want to add shops and other things; a quick survey with some photos - are both more than enough for most things.

> OpenStreetMaps is a bit better but it depends a lot on whether somebody enthusiastic has put in the data for the area you're in

If you do find an area with missing data, do feel free to create an account and add it yourself.

That's literally the only way the open source map gets better.

This is just OpenStreetMap with another frontend on top, you can see this by going to the area[1] and going to the right, selecting layers and looking at the CyclOSM one.

Also, a bit lame that on mapy.cz, you have to click on the "and others" to actually see the OpenStreetMap credit.

[1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.75343/19.87948

> I don’t think it ended well.

https://www2.seas.gwu.edu/~mfeldman/ada-project-summary.html would suggest otherwise

I've used Matrix for the past couple of years for work chat system, and I personally think that the thing is a fad at best.

Synapse is simply awful as a server implementation, and the clients are just simply bloated.

But if you are looking for a good federated, self hosted, and encrypted chat solution, for my own private chat system; I've gone back to XMPP - I've settled on:

* ejabberd (which is in Erlang so just by definition is going to perform leagues better than Python) - prosody also works fine (especially for "lower end" servers) - though both need a bit of configuration at first install

* conversations.im on my Android phone

* dino.im on my desktop (which recently added calling capabilities back to phones: https://fosstodon.org/@dino/106228549009869402 )

* (if you're on a Windows desktop): gajim.org is still making releases and works (including E2EE)

I do not know of a good iOS client for XMPP right now, but these three fully support OMEMO for E2EE and I've had no issues talking to others on them.

This resignation appears to have gone unannounced:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/c...

You should give dino.im a try. I've been using it for the last few months alongside conversations.im and it's been great with syncing even encrypted messages.

> And you know another thing? Email works great to me, and it's decentralized. I have my email server, with my domain, so I don't depend on anyone to provide me a service. I have full control of my data that is on my server. I can even send encrypted emails with GnuPG without any problem

OK, and how many non-technical people do you email that have GPG keys? If they don't have GPG, how do you have end to end encrypted communications with them?

This is where Signal won and GPG lost, with the Signal protocol integration into WhatsApp, one billion people instantly got secure comms without even having to know what a key is.

> it's as secure as Signal, if not better.

Signal uses a new key for every single message you send, so it could be argued that actually Signal is better than GPG.

> Tell that to the people getting imprisoned due to Signal's metadata leaks:

Please explain how Signal leaks metadata given:

- everything behind the client and the server goes over TLS

- all Signal messages are end to end encrypted with the Signal protocol

- the Signal server doesn't even know who is messaging whom in the majority of cases: https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/