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Technical and implementation details again. When we speak about programming paradigm, we speak about the language alone, not any software system, this is a theoretical discussion. It does not matter how it is executed, what matter is how you express yourself in that language to achieve your goals.

There are no bits, bytes and cpus in this conversation. This is classification and taxonomy of artificial languages created for other purpose than communication between 2 persons.

In SQL you gives instruction in a functional way of thinking. Functional programming is a restricted variation of imperative one for a purpose the same way how object oriented programming is basically structured programming with restrictions imposed on the programmer (for a purpose again, and a very good reason for that). So fundamentally SQL is imperative, but the details of that completely hidden and therefore irrelevant.

In HTML you describe the result itself. So "SQL would only be declarative if the user literally wrote the entire result set of the query" is not completely, but somewhat true. The way how you define a result can vary, but SQL definitely does not do that. But the way how i can imagine SQL as declarative, if i "programming by example" or ask chatgpt to translate my natural language and create the query. But these are forced examples, because IMO SQL is absolutely not declarative, and cant really be.

If HTML is a programming language or not, it's debatable, but i think it's enough that is a language (programming or not) which is designed to describe a flow-kind of a text layout (like a word file) in the first versions, then other visible elements, so i think it's not completely, but kinda irrelevant question from the viewpoint of paradigm.

I'm sorry, i'm speaking with multiple people on multiple threads here, and don't have too much time to express myself perfectly. Every language is declarative is an interpretation that can make sense in certain angle, like when you use some imperative language, you create mini libraries for yourself, and that's already steps to a declarative variation, but this does not changes the fundamental design of the language.

But this is not my angle, i say the borders drawn up by the way how you, as a programmer, approach solving a problem. My take is declarative when you define the *end result* you want to get. You certainly don't do this with SQL, because that case the your product (what you write in the query) would be the end result set, the data itself. Of course in case of HTML you don't literally draw in the rectangle in the code, but you describe the end result. This is the difference.

Other arguments you wrote is out of scope for me regarding this conversation.

You taking apart languages, saying this is imperative part and this is declarative. That does not make sense only entire languages can be described like that.

But if you want: In the recipe the ingredients can be "int y;", like declaration, or something else like malloc() Stating that i will need something is not declarative programming. Declarative is defining the end result. So none of the ingredients or the declaration are declarative programming (if you want to turn recipe to declarative, you go to a restaurant), but as i told, you can't do this with elements of languages, it just does not make sense.

In practice language paradigms can overlap related to concrete products. You can use (and actually should) c# for functional programming, but that does not make the language functional, the fundamental design is imperative. In the future, everything will be declarative (chatgpt is the first glimpse), so in some way we're just wasting our time here. Also, speaking about AI, model training does not fit any of the current paradigms, it's gonna be a new one, and maybe the only one, who knows...

It is not possible, but it is the future, you already have a glimpse with chatgpt creating sql for you. Now that is real, 100% declarative SQL, no debate on that, as everything will be some-when in the future.

You are describe here the abstraction you create on a primitive (related to the system you design) system, and introduce ideas like "employee" "unions" etc If you do good job, when you programming you combine generic purpose systems and introducing new ideas in a way that another human can understand (words), but in certain way you "made the computer system understand" those things too. That's your job. So basically you teach SQL server that a union employee is a thing with the dbo.IsEmployeeUnion function.

In case of html you are not introducing new things. You actually can, because the browser is really flexible (like i make a non-functional quasi elements a lot, to make the html code itself more understandable), but HTML is not designed for you to introduce new elements/ideas (originally, nowadays kinda with CSS). Anyways this is how you see the difference in another way.

I try to tell all of you how the technical details, the implementation does not matter, only just the language itself, when we speak about paradigms, but it seems i'm failing.

By the way, i think training AI models does not fit to any of the paradigms we have here, it's gonna be (or it is?) a new way to solve problems, and that also has nothing to do with files, or any kind of implementation. The important is what you see on the screen, and what you do.

Of course they are, however they are both languages. And you classify them into the same category, so it should have some similarities, right?

No, programming style can be "hacky", "script kiddie" or "architect kind design" or whatever. I'm speaking about "programming paradigms".

"functional programming, but that doesn't change the fact that SQL is a declarative language for describing recordsets"

ok, im describing recordsets for you: this set has 4223 records. I'm thinking of something else, but i can't really describe a recordset with anything else. Describing is not what you do when you create a software. You have a problem and you literally write a solution like an author write a book. And as you said, with SQL, you use a functional approach, how you do it when you use lambda or LINQ. Therefore SQL is functional.

SQL is turing complete with the structured extensions, so in that way can be general purpose, but something is general purpose or not does not decide the paradigm. Usually languages are more restrictive moving to the declarative side of things, but that is by design. The point is that you write less text.

You make a statement without reasoning or examples: empty argument. You are not arguing any more, just want to be right.

> This is the "texbook definition"

The textbook definition of gravity is F=Gx((M1xM2)/r2)

According to Newton's textbook. Ask today's physicists about this.

"Comparing to html is nonsensical" No, absoltely not. We are speaking about programming paradigms. We can speak about those without computers, we never have to speak about HTML. A food recipe is a program, what you are executing when you cook, and it is imperative. Going to the restaurant you can achieve the same (the dish) but in a declarative way.

But I compare SQL and HTML for you. In both cases you are creating a text/a script in order to achieve something. The way how you achieve this can be really different in HTML and SQL. You can create a chess algo in SQL, but you cannot in HTML (purely), because in case of declarative language the framework around it strongly limits what the language could do. How would you explain this, if SQL and HTML are the same by nature? Focus on the text you write, because that is your product. Where is a condition is HTML, and why there is not?

Bitmap (like all data: xml, csv, whatever) is not a language in a classical understanding, but if you wanna make it, yes, they are purely declarative.

"It is not a declaration of what you want, but is a definition of what you have" Nope, i can define this without having a computer:

imperative: cooking recipe

functional: assembly line in a factory

declarative: your assistant. or let's make SQL declarative: you ask chatgpt to write a query, and define this query in english

"declarative is restricted to only markup languages" no, the form of the language is irrelevant. CSS is not markup, but still declarative.

Elements of languages cannot be declarative or not, you can only describe the entire language as such, because we are speaking about programming paradigms.

C is assembly at the end of the day, as everything else for the computer itself, but this is irrelevant here. From purely imperative, which is basically machine code to purely declarative (maybe chatgpt?) it's a scale, you put everything somewhere. Functional programming is syntax sugar over iterative, but it's really important one, as it changes how your mind try to solve problems. So basically what I'm saying everything is an abstraction over another one, down below the machine code, but this is just how thing works, not how you use your brain to solve things. I'm saying all this, because not the technical details, the implementations behind is the point when we speak about a purely theoretical classification which programming paradigm is.

"don't get anything other than the HTML that you create" that's the point of declarative languages

"That is, it is not generating anything." if you speak about code generation like code behind in VS, it has nothing do with the paradigm. If you speak about underlying technology, it does not matter. In case of declarative languages, the framework determines what the language is capable of. And that's the point of them, they are generalizing the solution for common problems. The browser do a lot of things in the background when it draws a rectangle the same way how SQL server is doing a lot things when you execute a query, but these things have nothing to do with programming paradigm, which can be understood without computers.

Imperative: cooking recipe

Functional: assembly line in a factory

Declarative: your assistant

(compare the real world examples to the things i mentioned)

> SQL is far and away understood as a declarative language for what data you want out of a relational database. I challenge you to find any literature that does not describe it as a declarative language.

Ok, and I challenge you to compare HTML and SQL. Are they the same by nature. Are the steps, the approach of problem solving is the same? Because if SQL is declarative, than it is really similar to HTML

> Now, can we munge definitions and pull in an odd true scotsman argument about it not being a "true declarative" language? I mean, yeah. But, this is like arguing that LISP is not a functional language by some specific modern view of that term. Certainly true, but far from useful. And almost certainly not what anyone you would talk to expects from those terms.

We are speaking about semantics and taxonomy here. These kind of a questions are always debatable, so i can't really say anything about this, because you are speaking of ways of discussion. What i'm saying that my taxonomy makes the most sense to me, and if someone truly can challenge it, it's gonna make my mind change, but "literature mentions it somehow else" is not an argument makes me change my mind.

You don't care about how the SQL server gets the data the same way how you don't care about what is happening in the background when you use File.ReadAllText The technology behind does not define the programming paradigm. You can speak about these paradigms without computers.

Imperative programming: really detailed cooking recipe

Functional programming: assembly line of a car factory

Declarative programming: a robot what can do what is programmed for, and sometimes can work with really unspecific instructions (like this one line in a file "Hello world" is not a valid HTML, but the browser still renders it)

>This is exactly what SQL is. There are exceptions, but they're exceptions.

no, i meant the query is literally this: GIVE ME ALL THE COST OF THE EMPLOYEES

or if we want to formalize more: ALL COST OF ALL EMPLOYEES

the point here that in a declarative mindset EMPLOYEE is a word that SQL server understands, like HTML understand paragraph <p> or table with rows and cells <table><tr><td>

>I don't think you have a correct model of SQL. SQL is a language that expresses definitions, not functions. It is absolutely declarative.

that just not true. without defining the how through transformations and conditions, the only thing you get out of the sql server is a table how it is stored. until you reach a certain complexity you are true, it can be seen as declarative, but my point here, is the approach of problem solving is the separation here. you dont even have to speak about computers:

cooking recipe VS assembly lines in factories VS a robot with ai, which can do whatever is programmed to, but in certain cases work out the details by itself when not given specifically (not the best example, but started to get exhausted)

Also how would you say that by nature HTML and SQL is the same?

SQL does not make sense as a declarative language to me. How you can say that SQL and HTML is the same by nature? Also I can't see why we can't argue about this against the literature. Saying "you are wrong because 20 years old textbook say you are wrong" is not an argument for me

Oh, i see, i did not get it. However i don't understand how "You tell SQL what you want, not how to get it. That's declarative" related to that list

iif and case by itself is not declarative or imperative. only an entire language can be described as such

everything is partly declarative. you can draw a rectangle line by line, or you can put this code into a function or a procedure, and call it declarative, because it is something like that.

i did not speak about testing, however what a declarative language can do is defined by the framework under it. so you test that I guess?

you can force SQL to fit in this, but this way everything become a declarative language. the approach of solving problems is the difference.

SQL does not fit my definition, because you reach your goals through multiple transformation and filtering, and this is how you reach your goal. you define the way, the process, not the end result. under there are some comments where i speak about this.

one way of seeing this, everything, which is high level language is declarative, but if we do this, we make this classification meaningless. it was just an example, for an operator, which is an "activity" is not part of a declarative mindset (usually). you can twist the idea of SQL to be declarative, but in this case we go back to my first sentence, and distinction will have no purpose.

i give you other angles.

imperative has structures like: sequence (by code), loops and conditions

functional

** has no loop, the loop itself the cardinality, which is always multiple

** has no sequence, it's encoded by data (edit here, actually it has)

** has (of course) condition

So, by basically we redefine the fundamental elements of the imperative model

Purely declarative languages has no sequence/loop or conditions (in programming understanding)

Answering to you, HTML (especially earlier) is pretty close to purely declarative, i does not have loops or conditions, however, this is not 100% true, but close. I don't know those languages you mentioned, so i can not have an opinion about them

no, the approach makes the difference.

when you create html, you dont care how the rectangle is drawn, you focus on defining the result itself.

if sql was declarative, than the code of the SQL above would be: GIVE ME ALL THE COST OF THE EMPLOYEES --, I DONT CARE ABOUT THE DETAILS

the details, which in this example the difference between fulltime/contract employees would be handled by the framework (SQL server) which would already has a concept of two kind of employee like in HTML can have rounded tips of rectangle or angular tips, because the framework already understand these ideas

an SQL query itself (if no structured language used) is just a big function applied on a set. It has never have a concept of the things you do, like building an accounting solution to a company. HTML has the concept of paragraphs, button, etc etc, all the things you wanna do. but with SQL you step by step define what you want by conditions and transformations.

or another way to separate them -imperative is a combination of -sequence/condition/loop

-function -no loop (cardinality is always multiple) -sequences is encoded as data -conditions <- yes it has conditions

Really?

SELECT CASE WHEN employee.type = 'contract' THEN salary CASE WHEN employee.type = 'full-time' THEN salary + benefit_costs END CASE FROM employee

Tell me how is this declarative?

-SQL is functional -CSV is not a language, it's a data format -GraphQL, im not familiar -JSON is literally executable javascript code, arguable -React is a javascript framework, binding is a declarative nature (if it has it, i dont know it too well), but it is not a language, it's a framework -HTML is absolutely, 100% declarative, yes

You are speak about things which called delegates, typed functions, defined by the parameters it gets, and the data it returns. Using delegates does not make a language functional. If you really want to speak about the underlying technology, than every high level language is declarative. You can draw a triangle by drawing three sides, or you can just put this in a function like drawtriangle(v1,v2,v3), and tadam, your language is declarative. The underlying tech is not important, the approach of the developer is important. See my longer answer above

-3 votes shows how this is a common misunderstanding.

If SQL was a declarative language, there would not be expression in it, for example SELECT (1+2) , only SELECT 3

These categories based on the approach of the programming, not the underlying technology.

Imperative languages (high level): a step-by-step description of a process, like giving orders to someone/something in a sequence, organized further with loops and conditions.

Analogue: cooking recipe. Languages: C, Pascal, Basic, etc (they can be structured or object oriented, still imperative)

Functional language (not mathematical definition, forget stateless, non-mutable etc for a moment): It is an approach that solves the problem of cardinality of the imperative approach. There is nothing which is "one", only "one of them". It's a little bit confusing how i try to define this, but this is the most important aspect of this. We only filter and transform elements of a set, and even if this is nothing (for not mathematical aspect), but syntax sugar, it gives a programmer a safe way to do things, without caring about the details of enumerating things or null checks, etc. Or another angle: functional programming eliminates loops, and put the sequence in the data, and keep conditions. It is really handy to be honest. Purely functional languages are mostly experiments, because making something functional is kinda self-motivated, but other languages will pick up more functional elements in time, which is great.

Analogue: assembly line in a factory. Thing are coming, they are changed (like car body painted) or removed (like quality control). Languages: LINQ, SQL, F#

Declarative language: your approach here is instead of describing how to do something, you only describe what you want as a result. CSS is a perfect example, however it is picking up non-declarative elements nowadays, original it was only capable to describe how a font a paragraph look like. HTML is also declarative. Instead of actually drawing a rectangle, you just say, this width, height on this position, etc.

Analogue: you order a coffee in coffee shop. You don't care any of the details, just the parameters of the coffee you want to drink. Languages: HTML, CSS

Of course there are blurred lines like you can say all high level language are declarative, because you never go down to the hardware level to manually do everything, but I think what is important the approach, how you start to solve the problem, and if we see this from this point, SQL cannot be a declarative language. It was designed to be as close to English as possible to make non-IT people do programming, but it successfully failed it's purpose, because it is a pretty good language for programmers, but it was never designed to be declarative.

SQL is not a declarative language. It is a functional language, and structured language on the top as extensions. HTML is a declarative language.

So this is basically boils down to false advertising, which is the real problem here

I think you are wrong. Your own real cognition and understanding based on all your experiences and memories, which is nothing else, but data in your head. I think consciousness is just an illusion of a hugely complex reaction machine what you are. You even use the word "extrapolate", which is basically a prediction based on data you already have.

If this is distressing for you, you may need help.

What is enough to know about this, that it is blended paste, which means it gradually becomes composed of the cheapest available ingredients as the cost is continually lowered, while the experience kept up using extenders, like bologna for example. This is about this kind of a food you have to know. Happy distressing!

you still did not learn that if you want to show off your work, you dont ask for signing up or any of that BS. it's 2023

so is it not even crab?

3D studio or lightwave 3D?

you should not. imitation crab is invented to be able to sell low grade crab. they just blend whatever they have, add mixture of aromas and extenders to hide this and to standardize the taste. like chicken mcnuggets basically. it is not poison, and i dont think it's unhealthy, but they rip you off hard

ok, if we keep this analogue, i offer you **!!!! UNLIMITED !!!!** (vuvuzela noises here) beer for a month. however in the 67th page of my EULA i say, after you drank a gallon of beer this month, you have to use a really, i mean really really thin straw to drink beer for the rest of the month. done, sell me a bridge

no, it does not make sense. it's like if you buy too much beer in a month, they start to mix it with water and sell it for the same price